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Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

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Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because teacher salaries, like the salaries of people here, should be determined by the market not by warm and fuzzy feelings.

The market has plenty of evidence that better education leads to significant economic benefit[0]. Specifically, high quality education, which requires highly trained teachers, leads to higher economic growth (0.63 percentage points per half of a standard deviation of test scores, normalized against other factors) 0: https://www.educationnext.org/education-and-economic-growth/

If it was easy enough to create better education by simply paying teachers more, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#272
post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

The teaching salary needs to be competitive with other jobs if you want to attract the right people. Why would any potentially great educator work in a completely unrespected field for no pay?

Also, with higher wages comes increased interest in the position and more ability for schools to actually say no to and filter out bad teachers. It's hard to turn away a warm body when there are teacher shortages everywhere.

Anecdotally, I got very lucky with a newly built public school. I had class sizes of It was like learning in a theoretical sandbox, having every fleeting thought or hypothetical exploration answered with ease, all completely out of the curriculum scope.

That to me is what i imagine education could be if there was enough money in the system and if people actually cared about the education of future generations.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#273
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be both. Everyone prospers when incentives are aligned on both sides of being and using labor.

I absolutely agree in principle, but unless pay is in some way linked to performance I really don’t see how. The existing seniority based pay system completely decouples money as an incentive, doesn’t it?

It's a tough nut to crack, I do agree. On one end of the scale you have labor incentive systems that are overly associated to (perceived) performance, which can produce much misery, inequity, and arguably reduced productivity - toxic stack ranking, the 2014 amazon NYT article, 996 Taylorism, etc.

On the other hand you have systems that you describe that are not at all calibrated to performance, and only care about seat time. Such as, toxic school systems or government agencies.

But, somewhere in between, there is a tremendous amount of happiness, equity and productivity. Such as, the customer service representatives that have worked for Amazon in Germany in the same roles since 1998. Or, airline pilots who, setting aside the various labor and equity troubles for a second, get great performance results from a seat-time oriented approach. Or someone that happily worked as a dishwasher at a restaurant in Rome for 20 years. In USA there's also a good deal of civil servants that have faithfully served our local societies for decades with a high quality of labor and life. The USPS mail person that delivers to my parents' house has been running that route for like 2 or 3 decades, he's still great at it and spends as much time playing with my parents' dogs as he wants.

I don't know what the perfect formula is, but I do think it involves outpacing inflation for compensation increases regardless of performance, and some amount of performance evaluation too. But maybe not too much of either.

Just my two cents, not an economist, etc.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One issue is that good quality education isn’t linear in cost. A school with 5 students may have lower overhead but will lack amenities that enable better learning, eg athletic infrastructure, libraries, etc. We provide public versions of those things, but then we’re back to funding parts of the education system with public levies. Furthermore there are some economies of scale that a public system enables, particular…

The most important thing for young student success is small class size. These concerns you have are more applicable for older students but I’m sure there’s ways to mitigate them.

Small class size helps but you still need a good teacher.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have diversity without turning education into a for-profit hellscape.

I went to a small private school in a low income area. No one in my school was wealthy. Tuition was low. The school was a non-profit. You are spreading FUD.

Your anecdote doesn’t prove or disprove anything. Like a particularly snowy winter doesn’t disprove global warming.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#276
post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

I am not surprised. I have come across both. Some are very well educated coming from top institutions who could be earning much more in private industry, but I have also met those who come from the bottom of the barrel whose grammar and vocabulary is deficient (liberry, expresso, etc) and who were not competent in basic geometry. In summary, it's a very mixed bag. Some are great and some really suck and should not be in education at all. Good CoL adjustment may help to weed out non-hackers in Ed.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure your mom is great, but teachers have low value over replacement. Teaching is not a particularly high skill or difficult job.

>Teaching is not a particularly high skill or difficult job. Even though I disagree with you I can see where you're coming from with this sentence, but : the impact is HUGE. The impact of good teachers on society cannot be overstated. It's an amazing ROI and everything we can do to further the education of humankind is worth doing. Programming (mostly) isn't that hard as well, compare software engineering with electr…

> Programming (mostly) isn't that hard as well

More people could be trained to program, especially in a casual way many more (spreadsheet formulas, low-code forms or glue) but working as mentor in high-school CS programs, I've been surprised in both directions. There are a bunch of bright people out there that could move into programming with just a boost to their training to enable them to bootstrap further ... and there are lots of people that just don't have the mindset. Abstract reasoning or modeling the world is just not something they are capable of doing without intense concentration, if that. It just doesn't come naturally to these people.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#278
post #264
post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

Some years ago, McKinsey conducted a study which found that a majority of public school teachers in the US come from the bottom of the distribution of academic performance in college: https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/industries/public%... ...which is consistent with your experience. While there are public school teachers that come from the top of the academic distribution, they constitute a minority of all p…

McKinsey studies are rather suspect. Who paid them to do that research, and what was their agenda?

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#279
post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

I know a mix of teachers. Some of them are incredibly smart, hard-working people who are underappreciated. Some of them are over-credentialed folks who lack sympathy for students and have a poor understanding of the subjects they teach, or at least some of the subjects.

I think you may have a bad selection. The type of teachers you’re talking about definitely exist, they’re just a subset of the population.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#280
post #235
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually good teachers should be paid much more than that, but the bad teachers which are setting up kids for failure in life should be shown the door. Unfortunately that’s not how the teacher unions want it to be. Hard to reward the good ones well if you can’t get rid of the bad ones.

How do you rate a good teacher with a bad one? Education is a bit different than most professions. Testing kids solves for the wrong thing as teachers are forced to "teach to the test" instead of educate children. I recommend the work of Alfie Kohn to learn more.

How do you rate a good software developer with a bad one? Software development is a but different than most professions. Counting completed Jira tickets solves for the wrong thing as developers are forced to game the ticket system rather than optimize for business value. /s

And yet somehow we continue to hire and manage software developers, evaluating their performance holistically.

What is it about teaching that supposedly makes skill so uniquely opaque to administrators that it's (teach to the test) XOR (pay by seniority).

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