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Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

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Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#111

Post by matthewdgreen »

nixass wrote: post #91
Vvector wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't charge at home at least 90% of the time, the EV loses most of the benefits. This will slowly change as more EVs are sold and the charging infrastructure improves.

> This will slowly change as more EVs are sold and the charging infrastructure improves. Yeah.. no. Especially not in old big towns around Europe where hundreds of thousands (even millions) of people live without underground garage and there's literally no place to install street side chargers on every corner.

How will we ever deliver 240VAC electricity to locations that are directly adjacent to urban city streets. Seems like an intractable problem. /s

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#112

Post by skhr0680 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #15
neoromantique wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there though? Toyota is never perceived as a luxury brand, it is associated with quality, reliability and maintainability. Something that you can hardly say about Apple.

They didn't distribute most of their luxury platforms worldwide. E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century

Lexus entering Japan started the slow decline of Toyota-badged luxury sedans. The Alphard is still an upper-middle class status symbol, but the people who saw Toyota as a luxury brand bought their last Crown ten years ago and are fast approaching 80. I suspect that is also the reason for the unification of Toyota badges and the Hail Mary design of the new Crown.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#113

Post by _yb2s »

neoromantique wrote: post #7
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This seems similar in a sense. They exist in very similar segments portions of their respective industries serving very similar customer demographics (in North America). Naturally there is going to be quite a bit of evolutionary convergence.

Are there though? Toyota is never perceived as a luxury brand, it is associated with quality, reliability and maintainability. Something that you can hardly say about Apple.

I disagree. The main reason I buy Apple laptops is the physical reliability... they absolutely make low end (feature wise) models that still have top notch physical quality and longevity, including historically making super bare bones school/education targeted models. I know it's a premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is still going strong with zero repairs other than two battery replacements that took about 5 minutes each, after over a decade of regular hard travel use. I think I'd be lucky to get 6 months from the average PC laptop with use like that.

I'd argue that my iPhone SE2 is also a product that is very much a low end non-luxury phone, but with unparalleled physical build quality. I purchased it from a budget box store as part of a cheap prepaid cell phone plan- total ownership cost will be far less than the cheapest Android phones targeted at the 3rd world, if you consider how much longer it will likely last.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#114

Post by starkd »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #73
rr808 wrote: post #31

Lots of people saying Toyota missed the boat on EVs. I'm not convinced the technology, infrastructure or battery supply is ready for true mass production of EVs. Toyota makes 10 million cars a year, they'll be selling good EVs soon enough to put Tesla to shame.

The thing is that if Toyota wants to be a leader in this space, they should not wait for this to happen but be making it happen. The reality is that they have not been doing that. And others have. If they wanted to be a leader in this space, five years ago would have been late to start putting in place the strategy, infrastructure, supply chains, etc. you need to build EVs. They did not do much five years ago other t…

Going all in on EV's is also a very big gamble. Sure, there is probably a profitable segment in the market, but with so many other car companies going all-in, Toyota could be in a good position by having a wider line-up of products. There is something very strange about the herd mentality around EV's. As if we are going to fix the environment if only everybody gets an EV for ALL use cases.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#115

Post by triceratops »

neoromantique wrote: post #7
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This seems similar in a sense. They exist in very similar segments portions of their respective industries serving very similar customer demographics (in North America). Naturally there is going to be quite a bit of evolutionary convergence.

Are there though? Toyota is never perceived as a luxury brand, it is associated with quality, reliability and maintainability. Something that you can hardly say about Apple.

iPhones and Macbooks last a long time and get software updates way longer than comparable products.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#116

Post by RodGodKiller »

oblio wrote: post #65
sokoloff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. It was more expensive to buy than the alternative I was considering (a used ICE), but wasn't that much more expensive than a comparable new car (ignoring incentives, which made the LEAF cheaper). Plenty of people were spending ~$30K on new 4-door sedans in 2014. The running costs have been noticeably lower, driven by lower (almost non-existent) maintenance costs. I'm about to buy…

My guess is that this is highly dependent on where you live, incentives/subsidies, local infrastructure, electricity cost. Based on the car presented by OP, Skoda Enyaq, I'm guessing they're in Europe where electricity is expensive. If the charging infrastructure isn't there, both at home/work and fast chargers, BEVs most likely suck.

Gasoline and Diesel is also very pricey. If you charge at home, electric cars are a (small) fraction of the price to ‘fill up’, even in Europe; if not, likely not worth it.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#117

Post by starkd »

mgfist wrote: post #86
rr808 wrote: post #31

Lots of people saying Toyota missed the boat on EVs. I'm not convinced the technology, infrastructure or battery supply is ready for true mass production of EVs. Toyota makes 10 million cars a year, they'll be selling good EVs soon enough to put Tesla to shame.

Millions of EVs are now sold per year. It's still a small percent of total car but increasing rapidly and while all other manufacturers are spending time and money building up expertise and infrastructure Toyota is ignoring it. Switching from ICE to EV is not easy and takes years to do so and the later Toyota delays it the more painful it will be.

There is no reason it all EV. There are legitimate use cases for both EV and ICE.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#118

Post by clircle »

Yaggo wrote: post #101
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging - Expensive and epic waste of time. Ionity leading the way with 0.79EUR/kWh and still you are there for 40 minutes and that's charger which can give me 150kW on start of charging. Slower chargers, like stupid 50kW? Yeah, 2 hours charging and they are wide and far. 20kW and weaker chargers? You are playing lottery with compatibility buddy. Yes it is there, yes it is on, but it does not like your car. What's t…

I think your experience reflects more your choise of car than EVs as technology. I have been driving Tesla happily for 3.5 years. I regularly make long distance trips to remote areas of Finland. No problems whatsoever. I pay 25 snt/kWh for on-the-road charging with Elli membership, about 12 snt at home.

"The user is the problem"

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#119

Post by NDizzle »

losvedir wrote: post #19

I had a Toyota. It was a great car, and a real testament to the engineering prowess Toyoda established. I see very clear, very interesting Innovator's Dilemma vibes, though, in how widely they've missed the boat on EVs. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Toyota lose its dominance in the coming decade. It's sad, since the Prius was such a gamechanger. Maybe the passing of the torch here will let them start to catch up.

Why would they lose their dominance? Are other manufacturers quality standards coming close to Toyota? I think not...

EVs don't work for me and my use case. I plan on keeping my Land Cruiser forever. My kids are starting to drive now, with one starting these past few months. In a Toyota, of course. As will the next two.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#120

Post by hindsightbias »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #45
rr808 wrote: post #31

Lots of people saying Toyota missed the boat on EVs. I'm not convinced the technology, infrastructure or battery supply is ready for true mass production of EVs. Toyota makes 10 million cars a year, they'll be selling good EVs soon enough to put Tesla to shame.

I think Toyota's issues will just be supply chain around battery packs. They have already been designing and engineering hybrids for a decade or more. I don't think its a revolutionary change for them to remove combustion engine and accessories and go with all electric motors plus larger battery packs. If anything it might simplify internal designs. I'd rather they flow this through their internal typical processes a…

Some analysts like Munro think legacies will take much longer to catch up to Tesla because they're evolving ICE designs/standards into their EVs and crippling them. Toyota is so huge they could have afforded a clean-sheet platform but waited too long so they'll fall into the same cycle.
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