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War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

economist.com

111–120 of 231 posts

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#111

Stupid question: But were does a normal citizen buy redox flow batteries? I googled far and wide, and those are just not sold in my area to end consumers (germany). Has somebody else a website were you can order those? I can order normal battery packs just fine, but the chemical storage ones ( https://redflow.com/ ) are vannishing into silence here in germany, for unknown reasons.

These are new to me. Would you mind elaborating on why these specifically, rather than conventional LIon?

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#112

In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less. As someone with decent insulation and solar panels etc, this was exactly the time those investments should have paid off and for other people to be left behind because they refused to take basic measures. Instead they…

Vime's boots.

I'm not sure about here in the EU, but the UK has a cost of living crisis such that millions[0][1][2] are regularly skipping meals. People in that situation don't have the spare money be able to install PV or upgrade their insulation.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/one-four-britons-skip-meals...

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/26/uk-student...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-for...

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#113

In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less. As someone with decent insulation and solar panels etc, this was exactly the time those investments should have paid off and for other people to be left behind because they refused to take basic measures. Instead they…

> in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less No. The government stepped in because poor people (and many not so poor) could not afford to heat their homes over winter. It is (was) an emergency measure. The transition to green energy is well under way in the UK, regardless of temporary subsidies.

In the UK, they capped the price of energy per kWh. So they bailed out everyone, rich, poor and middle alike. And the more energy you used, the more support you got. So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support.

Saying "but the poor" while throwing money at the rich is pretty self-contradictory IMHO. If they'd at least made cash payments, even if it was the same per household, it would at least have incentivised people not to waste energy. But no, it specifically rewarded people for increasing their consumption.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#114

In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less. As someone with decent insulation and solar panels etc, this was exactly the time those investments should have paid off and for other people to be left behind because they refused to take basic measures. Instead they…

Do you mean to imply that you're ok with UK citizens freezing to death because they can't afford insulation and heating?

Yes, I am personally advocating genocide which is the only alternative to paying people to waste energy...

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#115

In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less. As someone with decent insulation and solar panels etc, this was exactly the time those investments should have paid off and for other people to be left behind because they refused to take basic measures. Instead they…

This is a particularly cynical view from someone privileged enough to be able to afford solar panels.

I have panels too. But I also have friends that can't pay their energy bill this month.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#116

Stupid question: But were does a normal citizen buy redox flow batteries? I googled far and wide, and those are just not sold in my area to end consumers (germany). Has somebody else a website were you can order those? I can order normal battery packs just fine, but the chemical storage ones ( https://redflow.com/ ) are vannishing into silence here in germany, for unknown reasons.

These are new to me. Would you mind elaborating on why these specifically, rather than conventional LIon?

They have infinite loading cycles, they are rather bulky, basically a fluid medium is charged and discharged. This allows for the storage capacity to easily scale (the generator remains, the tanks increase).

In addition the storage fluid can be rather friendly substance from a environment perspective (some use drinkable salty water). And cheap. And if you have a old pool or a old oil tank in your house you are basically halfway there regarding installation. Its basically chemical storage of energy, allowing for the (re)use of preexisting installations.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#117
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Renewable energy was projected to grow anyway in spite of the war because of the declining costs of renewables And now it's growing faster. Because fossil fuel prices went up. That's the article's thesis.

Faster than what? This articles cites nothing more than a hunch and trends that existed pre war.

If an article about investment in swimming classes that was boosted by a series of drowned children, and praises those classes for how they also increase overall health and fitness, the article is pro-drowning?

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less No. The government stepped in because poor people (and many not so poor) could not afford to heat their homes over winter. It is (was) an emergency measure. The transition to green energy is well under way in the UK, regardless of temporary subsidies.

In the UK, they capped the price of energy per kWh. So they bailed out everyone, rich, poor and middle alike. And the more energy you used, the more support you got. So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support. Saying "but the poor" while throwing money at the rich is pretty self-contradictory IMHO. If they'd at least made cash payments, even if it was the same per household, it would at least have in…

I agree that the incentives were off on paper

But is there any evidence that's been the case, that people have increased their consumption?

Anecdotally, I can't think of anyone I know that hasn't actively reduced their usage

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#119

Just one datapoint: this war has motivated me to make at least this house as independent of external energy sources as possible within the limits of physics and my budget. Gas prices have gone up so far and so fast that freestanding houses are listed for sale all over the place here. I've installed a relatively large amount of solar (nominally a bit over 10 KW) and I'm using that to offset the gas bill as long as we…

Good insulation (floor, ceiling and all walls) and properly fitting doors and windows already goes a long way. My apartment was renovated this way and when you turn the heating on when you come home the place is up to temp very quickly.

A lot of houses have badly fitted windows & doors. Put your ear near it and clearly hear sounds coming in through little gaps, or even feel a small air current.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#120
post #117
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Faster than what? This articles cites nothing more than a hunch and trends that existed pre war.

If an article about investment in swimming classes that was boosted by a series of drowned children, and praises those classes for how they also increase overall health and fitness, the article is pro-drowning?

There have been some Russian articles indicating that the Ukraine war gave a boost to the Russian economy, which is why it grew this year.

They were exhibiting nothing more than a purely objective opinion based upon the purest of evidence of course.

Many Russians would believe that the idea that an article like that used spurious evidence to push a pro war agenda absurd. Like being pro drowning, as you put it.

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