Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 231 posts

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#71

Post by redeeman »

some_random wrote: post #56
pasquinelli wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is dumping weapons into ukraine going to stop the war? is expanding the war going to stop the war? what do you propose doing about russia invading ukraine, besides war?

Yes actually, a Ukrainian victory will in fact stop the war. Furthermore, an ending to the invasion that results in Ukrainians being ethnically cleansed and Russia in a position to pursue more invasions is not a better outcome than war (specifically the one that Russia chose and continues to choose to pursue) for quite a few very obvious reasons.

okay.. but at this point ukraine has recieved more money/material than years worth of russian military budgets. Where is the victory?

Also, what is it? is russia 100% incompetent, or is it a fiendish foe? We have had to hear for a year now about how russia is so totally inept that ukranian farmers are victorious against them using nothing both farming tractors, but at the same time the west must send ungodly amounts of money and material their way, and there is no victory. Which one is it?

It seems the west is willing to fight to the last ukranian.

I just dont see how the west meddling here is gonna make any outcome better. So far nothing indicates I am wrong.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#72

Post by redeeman »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #51
some_random wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Russian Invasion of Ukraine has been such an amazing tool for distinguishing actual anti-war people from anti-west ghouls. It's a completely indefensible war of aggression by an imperialistic power against it's former subject but since the imperialistic power is Russia suddenly all these "anti-war" activists think it's fine.

Suddenly so many people are actually pacifists, yeah I don't buy it either. And in their anti Western hatred they are willing to sacrifice a sovereign state to a Russian invasion. A question I pose to these people- after Ukraine what other land is Putin allowed to grab?

heres the deal: not intervening is not the same thing as agreeing. Not wanting to throw gasoline on the fire is not the same as thinking the fire is great, or having put it in the first place.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#73

Post by krageon »

some_random wrote: post #56
pasquinelli wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is dumping weapons into ukraine going to stop the war? is expanding the war going to stop the war? what do you propose doing about russia invading ukraine, besides war?

Yes actually, a Ukrainian victory will in fact stop the war. Furthermore, an ending to the invasion that results in Ukrainians being ethnically cleansed and Russia in a position to pursue more invasions is not a better outcome than war (specifically the one that Russia chose and continues to choose to pursue) for quite a few very obvious reasons.

Ukraine will not win. No amount of dumping money into a country is going to help with this size difference, unless many more countries mobilise their actual military. That won't happen because then it goes from a regional conflict to a large-scale war and more countries might feel like meddling. Then there might be a world war.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#74

Post by redeeman »

olivermarks wrote: post #33

'Yet the reality is that the return of brown fuels is a subplot in a much grander story. By making coal, gas and oil scarcer and dearer—prices remain well above long-run averages, despite recent falls—Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has given renewable power, which is mostly generated domestically, a significant strategic and economic edge .' Classic Rothchild/Agnelli Economist - never mind the 'heat or eat' struggling…

yes, it really quite would be a shame if someone noticed how wars tend to always magically reinforce and favor some goals and ideals of the upper elites. Never the peasants on the floor.

Im sure the western powers are extremely sad about the war, despite how it obviously amplifies a longstanding agenda. Coincidence, im sure.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#75

Post by krageon »

runarberg wrote: post #57
luckylion wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your position is. Technology won't progress? Investing money into research and scaling up production doesn't lower the marginal cost? Monetary incentives aren't better at getting things done? We can't "avert the crisis" without going back to adopting pre-industrial lifestyles/communism/veganism or wear sheep wool clothes? What's the "appropriate" response that you'd feel okay with?

My position is pretty much “yes” to all of these questions. Technology won’t progress at the rate needed to prevent the worst of the climate disaster, we need to sink way more money into research and production, not only to lower the cost, but to flat out dump infrastructure where it is needed (yes this means Germany should pay for solar plants and high voltage powerlines in Tanzania and not expect anything in return…

I don't disagree with you. I invite you to take a step back and stand in the shoes of someone who is exhibiting "carbon entitled behaviour". Do you think what you're saying here and your hardline stance on measures is going to get them to behave closer to your ideal? If not, how else are you going to make this happen? A lot of these people are politicians, so "just impose a higher tax" isn't a measure, it is a result of a measure (that measure being convincing those people to do what you want).

You say we don't have time for a communist revolution. We don't have time for any kind of revolution, because revolutions famously don't really work or improve anything. This is extra relevant because your other statements still lean on the premise of a revolution happening, just one with consequences you think are more important than communism.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#76

Post by colechristensen »

runarberg wrote: post #12

I don’t know if this is addressed by this article (I cant read it because paywall) but I’m gonna make a leap of assumption—because this is the economist and are likely to be guilty. I’m seeing more and more of a new kind type of climate denialism pop up lately, which I like to call climate optimism . A climate optimist is aware that the climate crisis is real, is caused by humans, and is an existential threat to huma…

I notice quite the opposite, not just about climate but many topics. Doomsaying. People who will only believe and repeat something if the narrative is “this is the worst things have ever been and it is continuing to get worse”. When confronted with information to the contrary, there is always a scope change “What about x”.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#77

Post by glogla »

_kbh_ wrote: post #58
pasquinelli wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is dumping weapons into ukraine going to stop the war? is expanding the war going to stop the war? what do you propose doing about russia invading ukraine, besides war?

> is dumping weapons into ukraine going to stop the war? is expanding the war going to stop the war? Aside from arming Ukraine for a decisive victory what do you propose the rest of the world do?.

Let Russia take over, run their genocide they planned, you know, typical anti-war stuff.

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#78

Post by glogla »

user3939382 wrote: post #66
staunton wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an opinion on the source, not on what it says. Your second comment still doesn't adress any claims of the article, it just attributes malicious intent to it without mentioning what makes you think that. The claim is that while rich countries don't really care enough about the climate to seriously pursue a "green transition", many now realized that they do care about energy self-sufficiency to accelerate it. Do…

My opinion is that The Economist is looking for any angle to support the fleecing of the American people to the tune of $130B which we just handed over to the arms industry. The war was crafted by this industry through its puppeteering of the US government for expressly this purpose. The Economist might as well write an article about the long-term positive impact on the planet of humans being obliterated by the nucle…

[flagged]

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#79

Post by bootsmann »

user3939382 wrote: post #66
staunton wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an opinion on the source, not on what it says. Your second comment still doesn't adress any claims of the article, it just attributes malicious intent to it without mentioning what makes you think that. The claim is that while rich countries don't really care enough about the climate to seriously pursue a "green transition", many now realized that they do care about energy self-sufficiency to accelerate it. Do…

My opinion is that The Economist is looking for any angle to support the fleecing of the American people to the tune of $130B which we just handed over to the arms industry. The war was crafted by this industry through its puppeteering of the US government for expressly this purpose. The Economist might as well write an article about the long-term positive impact on the planet of humans being obliterated by the nucle…

> My opinion is that The Economist is looking for any angle to support the fleecing of the American people to the tune of $130B which we just handed over to the arms industry. The war was crafted by this industry through its puppeteering of the US government for expressly this purpose.

Care to explain how exactly the US is to blame for Putin invading Ukraine due to Ukrainians ousting Yanukovych 8 years ago?

Re: War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition

#80

Post by glogla »

redeeman wrote: post #72
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly so many people are actually pacifists, yeah I don't buy it either. And in their anti Western hatred they are willing to sacrifice a sovereign state to a Russian invasion. A question I pose to these people- after Ukraine what other land is Putin allowed to grab?

heres the deal: not intervening is not the same thing as agreeing. Not wanting to throw gasoline on the fire is not the same as thinking the fire is great, or having put it in the first place.

I like how you refer to people being able to defend from being enslaved and murdered as "throwing gasoline on the fire". If I started torturing and killing your family, would you let me do it because trying to stop is throwing gasoline on the fire?

Just how inhuman can you people be?

Post reply on HN