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Let Teenagers Sleep

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#281

Post by krolden »

codingdave wrote: post #222
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #157

Its a common misconception that the goal of Education System is to educate. It's not, and the system will never accept 'improvements' that run contrary to it's purpose. In actuality education system serves four purposes: One: make both parents avaliable for the job market. For that it must supervise children during work hours, to make sure they aren't getting in trouble, drugs, or worst of all, into politics and prot…

You are grossly mischaracterizing the word "purpose". The purpose is to educate. Yet the flaws in the system are quite real, and you have called some of them out. But calling out the flaws and claiming they are the intended purpose is quite simply wrong. BTW, you can change who is in control - school boards are locally elected. Your vote has more power to change schools than almost anything else. If you want improvem…

Do you thing the prisons are there to 'correct' inmates? It says department of corrections but it looks more like the department of shove them in a hole.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#282

Post by jesterman »

anthomtb wrote: post #275
joezydeco wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why. We've been at our administrators for years and the response always is "the bus routes" but in reality it's because of the sports schedules. High school sports is a drain on the educational system, plain and simple. It lacks equity - an disproportionate amount of money is spent on very few children. The football coach in our HS has a Vice Principal title, so he doesn't have to teach classes but kn…

Does what you are saying about sports also apply to theater and music?

Is a disproportionate amount of money spent on very few children for theater and music?

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#283

Post by LastTrain »

gabereiser wrote: post #57

The real blame for early high school is extra-curricular sports. Basketball, Football, etc. For those sports to thrive, teams need to practice, in order for practice to be efficient, it needs to be at least an hour. So 2 hours are allocated (suit up, practice, suit down). In order for children to be able to commit to 2 hours extra of their time BEFORE their parents get home (5pm), class would have to end by 3pm. Now,…

That's good but early start times are not exclusive to the US or places where sports and bussing introduce the same kinds of constraints. There are more convincing explanations for this, such as: it doesn't work when kids have to be to school at the same time parents need to be at work - staggering the morning routine and drop-off times and all. Plus, who is starting school at 6:15? Are you talking about an opt-in zero hour? That is by choice. If starting that early is bad for your academics or health, the choice is clear, drop the sport.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#284

Post by waboremo »

rajin444 wrote: post #127
fdgsdfogijq wrote: post #17

As a teenager I was diagnosed with "ADD". Very intelligent, but unable to focus or complete assignments. My life habits were carb heavy unhealthy food (from the cafeteria), soda, lack of sleep due to long school commute, not much exercise As an adult, I eat no carbs, all meat and vegetables, I work from home and sleep in as far as I need every night. My thinking is laser sharp. They tried to medicate me with all sort…

I used to be really big on trust the experts, seek authorities for advice, etc etc. Especially for areas involving mental / general health. Specifics like fixing a broken arm I’m still on the experts side :) Decades later I’ve had many (eerily similar) experiences to what you detailed above. I’ve gotten the best results evaluating issues on my own / with the help of a few trusted sources. Expert advice is about as re…

You don't want to trust experts for mental/general health, and you encourage people find others who "got results". In essence, you have just made random people the experts, but worse, allowed them to run freely without any risk of reputation harm. I can sue a doctor for malpractice, I can't sue user21389 for false results. Why do you so quickly believe these experiences of randoms?

This idea modern healthcare exists to make a profit doesn't apply in all cases, and you imply they use these profits to create a false narrative of experts. But yet ignore that exact same thing is happening with the supplement industry (not regulated btw), of people claiming their ADHD was cured by taking a couple of supplements - "it's better than being drugged by Big Pharma" they say. This individualistic mindset only encourages these predatory companies to swoop in and say hey, I know exactly the right cure smoke this, crush these herbs, drink that.

Made even worse by the fact people aren't honest about how their meds have helped them get to a stage where they have replaced old routines with better ones, started therapy, etc. Yet they look back, post on social media "antidepressants are the worst - quit now!"

Forgive me if this is harsh, I've seen way too many people spend way too much money and time on BS when they could have got serious help.

Don't get me wrong, finding a diet that works for you, being more active, being more social, these are all great things nobody disagrees on. But this idea I'm supposed to trust a random person online, cured of his ADD, because he started eating less bread is one I am going to treat with the same severe skepticism you hold regarding mental health experts. :)

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#285

Post by logicfiction »

gabereiser wrote: post #57

The real blame for early high school is extra-curricular sports. Basketball, Football, etc. For those sports to thrive, teams need to practice, in order for practice to be efficient, it needs to be at least an hour. So 2 hours are allocated (suit up, practice, suit down). In order for children to be able to commit to 2 hours extra of their time BEFORE their parents get home (5pm), class would have to end by 3pm. Now,…

Why does high school have to go first in the morning? When I was in elementary school I would wake up at 5:30-6am naturally and watch TV before school. Come high school and I was constantly not getting enough sleep with the earlier start times and setting my own bed times. I think high school aged children have more need for a later start than elementary school aged children.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#286

Post by mhb »

layman51 wrote: post #210
sidibe wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such thing as too early. Our public HS swim team used to do the water part at 6am then cross training (running or weight room) after school. Probably because of pool availability

You’re kidding right? To me, requiring students to wake up before 7 AM should be considered hazing.

No one's requiring kids to compete on a high school swim team.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#287

Post by scruple »

gabereiser wrote: post #57

The real blame for early high school is extra-curricular sports. Basketball, Football, etc. For those sports to thrive, teams need to practice, in order for practice to be efficient, it needs to be at least an hour. So 2 hours are allocated (suit up, practice, suit down). In order for children to be able to commit to 2 hours extra of their time BEFORE their parents get home (5pm), class would have to end by 3pm. Now,…

I agree with your specific point but my experience with obscene lack of sleep during my high school years was owed to extracirculars in general.

On top of athletics, I was also part of Men's Glee (and symphony choir, and swing choir for a year) in high school. Men's Glee formed while I was in the 10th grade and the only time we had to practice was before classes because all of us were also already involved in other sports and extra curriculars. 10th through 12th grade I was awake at 5:45AM to get to school by 6:15 to practice from 6:30 til 7:15/7:30. There were at least half of a dozen other grouoa starting before school for the same reasons. I was also in swing choir my 11th grade year and we met after sports practice ended. A handful of us had days that started at school around 6:15AM and ended around 7:30PM!

These choirs were good and competitive at the (Ohio) state level but in retrospect I'd have rather slept later. In the case of swing choir, it was very much that I just wanted to leave the school grounds at a reasonable hour.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#288

Post by thebradbain »

gabereiser wrote: post #57

The real blame for early high school is extra-curricular sports. Basketball, Football, etc. For those sports to thrive, teams need to practice, in order for practice to be efficient, it needs to be at least an hour. So 2 hours are allocated (suit up, practice, suit down). In order for children to be able to commit to 2 hours extra of their time BEFORE their parents get home (5pm), class would have to end by 3pm. Now,…

I went to highschool in the early 2010s, and I started 8:30am. Sports would start at 2:45. Senior year, because of the stress of college applications, we would start at 10am (you could still take the bus and use the extra time to meet with the college counselor if you wanted). It seems much more humane.

Why does the class portion of the day _need_ to be 8 hours long? My school is still considered one of the highest-ranked in Texas, if that matters, where it’s not uncommon for 25%+ of a graduating class to go on to Ivy’s, so I question if it’s really necessary to be sitting in class for longer than that in the first place.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#289

Post by djkoolaide »

nicoburns wrote: post #241
uncletaco wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was probably more accurate to say before their parents get off.

I still don't really understand why this is important. Presumably kids aren't playing sports every day of the week, so they'll have plenty of time to spend with their parents on the other days. I used to play Tennis from something like 5pm to 7pm a couple of days a week when I was a kid and that didn't seem to cause any problems.

Because in the US there is very little public transport infrastructure and most neighborhoods are not walkable. Buses have already left the school by 5pm. The only way for the kid to get home is their parent to pick them up.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#290

Post by xster »

SoftTalker wrote: post #193
joezydeco wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why. We've been at our administrators for years and the response always is "the bus routes" but in reality it's because of the sports schedules. High school sports is a drain on the educational system, plain and simple. It lacks equity - an disproportionate amount of money is spent on very few children. The football coach in our HS has a Vice Principal title, so he doesn't have to teach classes but kn…

Private sports outside of school are too expensive for all but the well-off families. School sports are basically free for the participants, and they are good for kids' social development and physical health. Sports keeps many kids in high school, certainly if my oldest hadn't had cross-country and track he probably would have dropped out.

Sorry if it's an ignorant question since my kid hasn't reached sports age yet. But athleticism doesn't seem like it should be an optional choice that detracts from other educational resources. Why not make it mandatory, 1h a day for everyone? Saves on travel, saves on transition time, saves on economy of scale and it's more equitable since everyone pays through taxes and everyone benefits in the short term (more parents in the workforce, less cost on nannies, take-out food etc) and in the long term (lower health care cost into adult age). People with differences in physical abilities are surly better cared for with pooled resources than planning for exercise individually.
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