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Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

javacodegeeks.com

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Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#71
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is approximately the opposite of how it happened. Several different groups of people invented processes that worked for them (e.g., Scrum (1995), XP (1996), FDD (1997), DSDM (1994)). They all liked what they had done, but discovered they had commonalities that were worth talking about. They got together for a long weekend and came up with the Agile Manifesto (2001). Having lived through the transition, I promise…

You're not the only one who lived through the transition. And IME the good practices that are used in Agile processes mostly are the ones that were well-known and widely-used. People have written automated tests for decades. People have been testing at the interface level since the dawn of OO and before. Put those together and you've got what is now called unit tests. People have been making small changes to improve…

You're again wrong on the history of the Agile movement, and I'm disappointed that you entirely ignore the meat of the point that you're replying to.

As to your assertion that everything good was in wide use before: that's not how I recall it. For example, CI: the Joel Test, written in 2000, suggests that the vast bulk of shops couldn't even manage to do a daily build, and he didn't even mention CI as an option. Also, it's not clear to me what a 13-year-old's imaginings proves about what a majority of development shops were doing in the mid 90s. My recollection is that waterfall was the majority, with most of the rest of the shops doing code-n-fix. And the first edition of McConnell's Rapid Development, which was a mid-90s book, either doesn't cover or treats as exotic most of the Agile notions.

But honestly, I don't know that it matters. I'm not sure why, but you seem eager to prove that there was nothing good about it based on your incorrect version of the history. The good news from your perspective is that what's sold as Agile has turned almost entirely into dismissable buzzwords, and as a fad I expect it will be extinct soon. There's nothing left to fight off.

But personally, I plan to keep using and evolving what I learned from it. If you want to see what a shop like that looks like (including all those practices you mention above), feel free to drop by in SF sometime. We like visitors.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a quick look at your ebook - $50 seems pretty steep, particularly when I can't view more than the first page, and I don't know how many pages there are. A table of contents would definitely help know what the book's about. Also, it's confusing how you've laid out the "You're doing it Wrong" parts. I'd merge them, call it "You're doing it wrong if..." (the if... is important) and make it all bullet points or el…

Thanks! I have a TOC -- just need to figure out how to make that available on Amazon. The book is very short, perhaps 20-30 pages. I make no apologies about that. The point is to be direct and provide lots of instruction. So if you're looking to pay for your book depending on it's weight, not it's usefulness, probably not for you. I know some of the best hacking books I've owned have been short. I'm hoping to make th…

The landing page is definitely a better place to send people to than Amazon, at least until you get the TOC issues sorted out. And you probably want to expand the book description on Amazon too - currently it's only a couple of sentences.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not the only one who lived through the transition. And IME the good practices that are used in Agile processes mostly are the ones that were well-known and widely-used. People have written automated tests for decades. People have been testing at the interface level since the dawn of OO and before. Put those together and you've got what is now called unit tests. People have been making small changes to improve…

You're again wrong on the history of the Agile movement, and I'm disappointed that you entirely ignore the meat of the point that you're replying to. As to your assertion that everything good was in wide use before: that's not how I recall it. For example, CI: the Joel Test, written in 2000, suggests that the vast bulk of shops couldn't even manage to do a daily build, and he didn't even mention CI as an option. Also…

There are millions of programmers in the world, and plenty of us have been doing it professionally since before Agile was all the rage. It sounds like you have too, but are you really arguing that just because you personally didn't encounter these ideas before Agile advocacy came along, no-one else did either? Or perpetuating the false dichotomy between Agile and Waterfall? I have never worked on a project that followed a strict Waterfall model without any kind of cycle or iteration in the process, not once in my whole career. Now get off my lawn!

Seriously, though, you've cited Spolsky and McConnell, but you seem to be appealing to their authority on the basis that if the techniques we're discussing had been in common usage, they would surely have been mentioned in those authors' writing in the late '90s. I would point out that the first edition of McConnell's Code Complete was published in 1993 and didn't say much about OOP, yet OOP was already in use by many professional developers, and books about languages supporting it had been published many years earlier: the first edition of The C++ Programming Language was published in 1985, for example. Similarly, the second edition of Code Complete was published in 2004, yet contains no index entry for the word "concurrent" or "parallel" (though there is a passing reference to multithreading on page 337). So perhaps it is unwise to infer too much from any absence of references in the kinds of source you mentioned.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#74
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But since Agile methods are mainly about sustaining high quality over the long term for teams of experts > Most of the market for software process improvement is in helping the clueless and/or terminally lazy. So are we trying to help teams of experts or the clueless and/or terminally lazy here? I don't know many clueless, terminally lazy experts, so it's got to be one or the other... Also, experts will evolve a wo…

> So are we trying to help teams of experts or the clueless and/or terminally lazy here? Me? I'm trying to help teams of smart, well-intentioned people. Which is why I'm happy to share what's worked for me and encourage people to try those things if they're interested. That's what motivates the early Agile people I know. But consultants are mostly in business to make money, and the bulk of their audience is clueless,…

At the risk of stating the obvious, has it occurred to you that the reason you have never seen a teams in large organisations adopt Agile successfully is that the basic philosophy of Agile doesn't scale to large projects?

You can get away with a lot of informality and doing things on-the-fly for small projects, when everyone involved can get around the same table in a meeting room and a single expert from the customer side can make all significant decisions. When your project team is made from 200 people divided among geographically and temporally diverse teams and the customer for your business management software is a 100,000 employee global corporation trying to co-ordinate the activities of six divisions in five key areas? Not so much.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#75
It's frustrating to me to see So many discussions around "agile" practices. Agile is a set of principles. That's it. I hear less disagreement with the principles and more disagreement with the process in which case I ask, why are you stuck with that process if it doesn't work for your company? It isn't because you're Agile. It's because you're not.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#76

Oh boy, could I give a good rant about how we're seriously screwing up Agile. In fact, I did -- http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2010/09/agile-ruined-... But as bad as the average Agile adoption is, I disagree with the author. Let's take each of his points: Companies are “doing agile” Yes. As an example, last year I had a huge manufacturing company (which I will not name) ask me to come in to help as an Agile c…

Agile is not best practices.

http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/27

Sorry, just one of my pet peeves, and describing agile as == best practice doesn't help anyone.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#77
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're again wrong on the history of the Agile movement, and I'm disappointed that you entirely ignore the meat of the point that you're replying to. As to your assertion that everything good was in wide use before: that's not how I recall it. For example, CI: the Joel Test, written in 2000, suggests that the vast bulk of shops couldn't even manage to do a daily build, and he didn't even mention CI as an option. Also…

There are millions of programmers in the world, and plenty of us have been doing it professionally since before Agile was all the rage. It sounds like you have too, but are you really arguing that just because you personally didn't encounter these ideas before Agile advocacy came along, no-one else did either? Or perpetuating the false dichotomy between Agile and Waterfall? I have never worked on a project that follo…

>>no-one else did either?

The GP wrote: "wide use", not that agile work methods was totally unknown.

The GP claims are similar to my memories but sure, I might have been in the wrong places and read the wrong sources.

Do you have references for your position?

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#78
I don't believe that agile is really going away, but it is definitely not really the hot thing anymore, at this point, many years since it first became a trend.

And probably a growing number of people are going to be put off by their experiences with "agile", if they are anything like mine have been.

Managers love the idea of releasing more often and understand that. And that part can be an improvement.

However, quite a few people seem to think that means you can fit that many more features in, which is false.

This is the big challenge for agile in my opinion: automated testing or even testing at all, is hard for many development teams for a number of reasons. Not to say that the actual skills or knowledge are particularly difficult to acquire. But practically speaking, putting into place a good testing and release system are challenging for many teams.

And doing "agile" (read: code and release more features faster) without solid automated testing or at least one real QA analyst who is busy, will guarantee that you have a ton of regressions and broken deployments. Now, since you are releasing much more often, you will still gain from getting much more feedback from customers, but there will be loud drone of bug fixing conflicting with the "agile" manager's push to release more features.

If your implementation of "agile" actually includes frequent refactoring and you don't have unit or at least integration tests, you are definitely going to be sorry.

Test-driven development requires a little bit more discipline, sometimes more up-front design, and sometimes investment in developer training. If TDD or the like is off the table or only partially implemented but you are still going ahead with "agile", then you still might survive, if you have a real QA analyst and solid process. My perception and experience is that most managers will decide that hiring an additional person "just for testing" is "not in the budget" and if they do bring someone onto the project for QA they will think they can use just any person rather than hiring a single QA professional.

That has been my experience with agile. Several years in, I am still working on trying to discipline myself and with my latest project I am having a bit of success with vows-bdd integration tests. But TDD/BDD etc. is a skillset that takes time to develop and a discipline that I believe young developers will greatly benefit from if it is part of their early training and experience.

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#79

Badly managed businesses that are run the "top down" way the author describes typically have no respect or desire to understand the product development process they depend so heavily on for success and profit. No amount of "Agile" or "Lean", no consultant or trainer, no Kanban or Scrum board can really ever hope to change this for them if these organizations cannot self reflect and see that they are standing in their…

No amount of "Agile" or "Lean", no consultant or trainer, no Kanban or Scrum board can really ever hope to change this for them if these organizations cannot self reflect and see that they are standing in their own way. You neglect the larger scale life cycle of such companies. Over time, in a large and varied environment, some group manages to do the right things. The real value of such group is recognized for a tim…

Basically, you want good people and a team culture that actually works.

Bingo. Which is of course, the hard part to do and maintain. The rest of it is really mostly hand waving. I do believe in a lot of the lean philosophy, and I believe that finding a process that works is crucial to success, but I also believe only a team capable of defining, developing and refining a process will ever have one that "works".

Re: Warning Signs that Agile Is Declining

#80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are millions of programmers in the world, and plenty of us have been doing it professionally since before Agile was all the rage. It sounds like you have too, but are you really arguing that just because you personally didn't encounter these ideas before Agile advocacy came along, no-one else did either? Or perpetuating the false dichotomy between Agile and Waterfall? I have never worked on a project that follo…

>>no-one else did either? The GP wrote: "wide use", not that agile work methods was totally unknown. The GP claims are similar to my memories but sure, I might have been in the wrong places and read the wrong sources. Do you have references for your position?

> Do you have references for your position?

I didn't have anything specific in mind; I'm going by my own experience, discussions with past colleagues, and conferences over the years more than anything. That said, it's not hard to turn up examples with a few minutes looking through my bookshelf and Google Scholar.

For automated testing, just stick search terms like "automated software testing" into Scholar and set the latest year to, say, 2000. You'll turn up dozens of papers going back decades that talk about techniques similar to what we would call unit testing today.

Continuous integration is another obvious one. The likes of Grady Booch were writing about the advantages of frequent integration builds by the early '90s. The term "continuous integration" appears in Object-Oriented Analysis and Design with Applications (1993), for example.

The prior existence of refactoring techniques is kind of obvious, as people had been discussing simple transformations like moving functions and data up and down a class hierarchy since the dawn of OOP. If you want a specific citation, Design Patterns (1995) mentions the specific term "refactoring" a few times, in turn citing academic papers on the subject cowritten by one of the authors as early as 1990, around a decade before Fowler's book and several years before Beck coined the term according to some Agile advocacy.

That's all I've got time for now, but I'm sure you could find eqally authoritative sources for the other things I talked about if you genuinely want to know.

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