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Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

reuters.com

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Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#221

Post by xmddmx »

credit_guy wrote: post #220
xmddmx wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was replying to another comment which suggested using only standardized testing. It's true, when you combine SAT with GPA, it's better, but that was not the point I was rebutting. Even so, with GPA+SAT, if r = .61 then r^^2 = .37, meaning 63% of variation in college grades are not explained. And I believe this is first year college GPA only - "getting a good GPA in freshman year" is probably a weaker argument than…

I never heard of anyone suggesting only SAT. What I heard instead (and what's happening in real life) is universities ditching the SAT. Countless universities did that (e.g. those in the U. California system). The stated reason is equity, but it's often followed by "it's redundant anyway". Well, it's not redundant. And this study shows that. Now you are saying that the SAT does not explain much of the freshmen year G…

"I never heard of anyone suggesting only SAT. " There are many comment in this thread suggesting exactly that (or suggesting a standardized test "better" than the SAT")

You point out that many Univ's have stopped using the SAT.

Some universities argue that they need the SAT to find those "diamonds in the rough" [1] (genius students who get crappy GPAs). I don't disagree with this idea.

As I said, it's complicated.

[1] https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/we-are-reinstating-our...

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#222

Post by xmddmx »

yodsanklai wrote: post #174
xmddmx wrote: post #144

This is one of those complex topics which on HN, seesm to lead to "it's simple, do X" types of analyses, which tend to be simple, confident, and wrong. Some facts to consider: At Harvard, over 40% of non-minority students received special treatment for admissions (which includes factors such as being a legacy, athlete, or the 'dean's list' which was a list of high donating parents). 75% of those would not have been a…

> For those that argue "meritocracy" and that standardized testing is the answer: the SAT ... Maybe other standardized tests are or could be better predictors. Some countries rely exclusively on them for admission (and if I'm not wrong, also the US is some specialized fields such as law or medicine).

The SAT is one of the mostly highly researched tests. I'm curious of your claim: Please, name one, and cite a source.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#223

Post by rtpg »

mmarq wrote: post #189
rtpg wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand how being bought in with your parents money is ok yet an athelete actually doing a thing themselves with their own bodies shouldn’t “get a pass”. Especially given that they still have to, you know, pass classes! Let’s not pretend all those legacies are showing up to class and working hard.

I think for the same weird reason why people tend to be OK with top athletes making billions while they are upset at Gates and Bezos. Don’t ask me what it is.

Not many athletes making billions

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#224

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #210
rayiner wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes people read platforms, which I think is incorrect. Warren got maneuvered by the media and activists into a "woke white lady with a plan" lane that just turned out to be a total loser. If she had campaigned on the worker stuff and didn't call people "Latinix" I think she would've done far better.

Ok, but they didn't have to read about it? She talked about it a bunch. It didn't seem to light anybody up.

If you had to reduce each candidate to three bullet points, "workers" wouldn't have made the list for Warren, but trying to stab the leader of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party in the back with a cheap accusation of sexism certainly would have made the list.

Clearly there is a large constituency for class-oriented progressivism. Sanders wouldn't have been able to win California, Nevada, and Colorado, and hold his own in Texas, otherwise. What Warren proves is that adding identity politics to the mix is a losing proposition, even in the Democratic Party.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#225

Post by runnerup »

boathouse wrote: post #168
TeMPOraL wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the ace in their sleeve is that "harass and embarrass" rhymes. It sticks in your mind and will draw your attention every time you see or hear it being used. That's an easy 10x multiplier to the strength of the argument :).

What dialect do you speak that those rhyme?

https://youtu.be/_kQBVneC30o

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#226

Post by washadjeffmad »

charlieyu1 wrote: post #177
fsckboy wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 75% of those would not have been admitted w/o that help this not making a claim anywhere near as interesting as it pretends. Since you're using a %, what is the % difference in quality that admitting these 75% makes (assuming it's even true, considering I don't believe much from the Guardian) and how does that (what the author calls "affirmative action") compare with other affirmative actions taken to achieve a bal…

Grades are the only metric that is difficult to cheat even with wealth.

The private "school of excellence" I attended instituted a 40% minimum on any assignment turned in with a name and date on it, and labs, tests, and quizzes - combined - made up 25% of one's final grade.

The administration contended this policy had nothing to do with the $8M athletics facility built with donor funds, nor the influx of scholarships awarded to students who all happened to join the football team that year.

I disagreed. Vocally.

When I went from a 98% student to a 24% student at the start of a new semester just by refusing to write my name on any homework, I was pulled from all activities, isolated in endless detentions, and put on a "remedial track" away from my class (like ISS). It took a few more weeks of talking with the teachers and priests and protesting, but the headmaster eventually stepped down and was replaced by one of the nuns.

Grades aren't hard to cheat if the institution is complicit, especially if what's being measured is compliance and obedience.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#227

Post by guywithahat »

smrtinsert wrote: post #133
guywithahat wrote: post #121

Part of the issue with this is that wealthy people are often wealthy because they're very smart, and being smart is in part due to genetics. So it follows that smart children will disproportionately have wealthy parents, and that will lead to more children of wealthy parents in high ranking colleges. This has been proven many times, most famously in the NLSY which surveyed thousands of kids over the course of their l…

Before you posted this, did you ask yourself what evidence might be used to counter your argument, as a way strengthen your position? If you were correct in your analysis, what evidence do you have as proof?

The NLSY is the classic example of this. It was a multi-decade study over thousands of people which looked at a variety of things as the kids aged into adults and through their lives. The wealth and IQ correlation was one of the results, and if you're interested in reading more I'd recommend The Bell Curve by Herrnstein and Murray, who were Harvard professors who primarily followed this study and reported the results in regards to IQ, as well as the other majors studies and their results.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#228

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #206
tptacek wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that aside, it seems like the original point being made was roughly that Occupy and Bernie were popular causes among young and online people, but not among the broader electorate. And that's basically true, right?

I would say Sanders is popular, and not just among "online people." He won Nevada, including a decisive victory among Hispanics. The state as a whole is a working class state, and Hispanics there especially so. While he's not more popular than Biden, but he represents the only other "lane" in the Democratic Party that has meaningful purchase with actual voters, especially "not online" voters. And of course, let's not…

Sanders fell apart among black voters in the south for a very good reason — he talked down to them as if he was the first person to think that talking to them about Socialism was a good idea, as if Paul Robeson or Bayard Rustin never existed. One of my (white) college classmates who was very heavily involved as a campaign worker for him told me, “Who are those people?” I said “Don’t look at me, it’s your campaign.”

That being said he was probably the only person who could’ve stopped the union workers in Ohio from flipping to Trump.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#229

Post by selimthegrim »

tptacek wrote: post #207
rayiner wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say Sanders is popular, and not just among "online people." He won Nevada, including a decisive victory among Hispanics. The state as a whole is a working class state, and Hispanics there especially so. While he's not more popular than Biden, but he represents the only other "lane" in the Democratic Party that has meaningful purchase with actual voters, especially "not online" voters. And of course, let's not…

I may have gotten myself in trouble here implying that Sanders is unpopular; he's not. He's just not viable. You can't win the Democratic nomination without the Black vote, and, for whatever reason, Sanders just wasn't able to connect there. It's academic now, of course; Sanders isn't going to run again. I'm not a Warren fan either. I'm the weirdo in this conversation who was actually rooting for Biden.

See my comment above.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#230

Post by int_19h »

mc32 wrote: post #12
ffggffggj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s definitely how right wing media portrays them. The reality is quite a lot more varied and nuanced. You should talk to some undergrads if you can! You may be surprised that things aren’t as you’ve been told.

Yep same about police actions. Sometimes they are in the wrong and abuse their power, but for the most part they’re doing their job, but if you listen to the media they’re at war with poor people.

I remember back when the PoliceOne forums were public. They eventually made it invite-only because reading that stuff for a few minutes was quite sufficient to reach this conclusion with no media in the picture.

Alternatively, if you subscribe to your police / sheriff department FB or Twitter feed or whatever they have, they will often post news about training their staff at such-and-such academy or training center. Looking those places up and reading about what they teach, exactly, can be very illuminating - "killology", for example.

And then there's the Fraternal Order of Police...

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