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Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

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Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#561
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a bad faith twisting of the original question and response. The original question was about a balloon filled with a dangerous substance, not civilian air traffic. Civilian air traffic is regulated by the Chicago convention, and shooting it down would be undoubtedly be the responsibility of the nation shooting it down. The difference is largely one of consent. Nations have the right to control what hap…

The hypothetical was about a balloon filled with a "potentially" dangerous substance. e.g., something that had a plausible reason to be there and was likely to be fine if not shot down with a missile.

Right, and that pretext makes sense.

But it still comes down to consent. If it’s not there at the consent of the host nation (either specific to that situation or via the Chicago convention), then the host nation has every right to take the object down, and the originating party bears most of the moral burden of the situation.

Now, I’d still want the host nation to act as responsibly as possible (for example, the US not shooting down the original balloon over land due to risks to people on the ground).

I still think the jump from the original moral scenario of “no human on board balloon with a potentially plausible argument for being there” to a “passenger aircraft full of people, clearly operating under the Chicago convention” is… quite the leap and really not fairly representative of the original question, and therefore quite unfair to hold to the people who answered the first scenario.

It feels like asking “who’s responsible if bomb disposal techs blow up abandoned luggage”, and then turning around and asking people who respond “Oh?! So what if those bomb disposal techs blow up a bus filled with people??” It’s just not close to the same scenario, to the point of feeling almost like bad faith.

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#562
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You underestimate how incredibly difficult the work that SpaceX is doing is. No spaceflight oraganization in the world is close to having the capabilities that SpaceX has right now (Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy). Meanwhile Starship is almost ready.

looking at the launch numbers from 2022 you can see that china is fairly close to having the capabilities of the us. Falcon heavy is still several years away from being useful in any capacity. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00048-7#:~:text=1... ..

SpaceX is launching more than twoce the payload to orbit than the rest of the world combined though... without starship. Also how is Falcon Heavy years away from being useful?

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#563
post #406
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schumer came out and said each of these objects was a balloon of some sort. https://nypost.com/2023/02/12/latest-2-objects-shot-down-by-...

This was denied as being known by the military presser, and the general involved also made the ridiculous claim that they shot it down entirely to prevent an accident to civilian air traffic.

At 20k feet, that's solidly in the middle of everyday commercial air traffic.

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant europe that is still reachable by plane

Huh? What's stopping anyone to reach Romania by plane? Or Bulgaria? Or Hungary? Or Slovakia? Or was it a joke I'm not American enough to understand?

Thought you meant russia/belarus. Didn’t know they put them in bolgaria and co tho considering how low they go in price it makes sense

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? What's stopping anyone to reach Romania by plane? Or Bulgaria? Or Hungary? Or Slovakia? Or was it a joke I'm not American enough to understand?

Thought you meant russia/belarus. Didn’t know they put them in bolgaria and co tho considering how low they go in price it makes sense

Eastern Europe is not just ex-USSR countries, and even there you can still travel by plane. Only Russia, Ukraine and Belarus have closed airspace.

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#566
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'd be hard to argue that something that's no even in orbit is not in a country's airspace.

Low Earth satellites also need continuous active thrust/lift to maintain orbit because of the air drag. At dispense Starlink satellites come back in 1-2 days without thrusters.

So are you arguing that being in orbit is not sufficient? Perhaps, but I'd say it's at least a necessary condition.

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#567
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low Earth satellites also need continuous active thrust/lift to maintain orbit because of the air drag. At dispense Starlink satellites come back in 1-2 days without thrusters.

So are you arguing that being in orbit is not sufficient? Perhaps, but I'd say it's at least a necessary condition.

Yes, or from the Chinese perspective, balloons are a legitimate response to the US violation of their space with LEO, especially kinetic attack satellites:

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/08/space-based-missile-defe...

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#568
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can provide legal cover for invading countries… Bosnia, Iraq etc. The UN courts can issue judgements… Human Rights Courts: e.g. Slobodan Milosovic, Radavan Kardzich etc A lot of the global treaties are kicked around there They also enforce peace zones (poorly) like Lebanon, Israel demilitarised zone. They coordinate aid programs UNRWA etc

I don't think legal cover is the right term. My understanding that basically all nations view their domestic laws as higher than the UN. UN decisions are more like a veil or facade of moral Authority

The UNSC has demonstrated its ability to impose force on some countries, when the permanent five agree.

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is that they are without comparison. There is no other force like it in the world. By definition it may have to be that way (if it should exist, which I'm not entirely sure it should), but so long as there are UN peacekeepers there will be armed troops where nobody's really both motivated and able to prosecute their war crimes with any reliability. The legal framework surrounding UN peacekeeping is in…

I'm not really doing whataboutism. I just think that the contemporary framework for thinking about 'war crimes' is asinine, and the traditional framework, where a war of aggression was in itself the 'ur-crime', makes more sense. The US is an interesting case study for me, not because they're so awful, but rather because they (almost uniquely) have both the resources and the resolve to avoid war crimes, and yet, the r…

Indeed. Abu Ghraib is actually kind of unique in US history, it is an exception of the norm where the people responsible are actually charged, found guilty, and not pardoned after the fact. Compare this to e.g. Guantanamo—which is still, over two decades later, holding people captive which have never been charged of any crime—has not held anyone responsible for systematic torturing of prisoners. Obama even went so far to explicitly immunize James Elmer Mitchell and Bruce Jessen who designed the torture program, as on of the first thing he did in office.

Even the Nosiour square massacre in 2007, which was a particularly atrocious, and not conducted by a military personnel, took a whole year to file charges (despite overwhelming evidence) found five Blackwater soldiers guilty, but had the charges dropped on technicality in 2009 (despite taking a whole year in preparing the charges). Now later rulings found this was an error, and four of them were finally charged with the massacre 2014 (seven years after the massacre). Charges were as such:

- Dustin Heard - 12½ years in prison

- Evan Liberty - 14 years in prison

- Nicholas Slatten - Life without the possibility of parole

- Paul Slough - 15 years in prison

Additionally Jeremy Ridgeway got 1 year and 1 day in prison in a special deal by pleading guilty and testifying against the other.

Predictably all four (not Ridgeway) were then pardoned by Trump in 2020.

This is a clear case of the US justice system not actually wanting to press these charges, and only did so reluctantly after an immense pressure from the electorate.

If you also compare the Nisour Square Massacre to the helicopter murders of journalists Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh (as leaked by Chelsea Manning). The only people that answered for those murders were Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange, and that was only for revealing the truth about those murders.

Re: Military shoots down another high-altitude object, over Lake Huron: officials

#570
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was denied as being known by the military presser, and the general involved also made the ridiculous claim that they shot it down entirely to prevent an accident to civilian air traffic.

At 20k feet, that's solidly in the middle of everyday commercial air traffic.

Understood, but is it reasonable to say that any car sized balloon floating at 20k ft is now worthy of a military response?
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