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Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

reuters.com

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Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#161

Post by graphe »

Spivak wrote: post #155
lolinder wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s super common to apply a bunch of similar schools and go to the one that gives you the most financial aid but the allegation is that all the programs dried up all at once and not going to college at all pretty much isn’t an option for a lot of fields. Not going to one of the "elite" schools is, though, and it's not like financial aid disappeared at all the state schools. The reputational difference between the…

Assuming it’s true, I think the government should step in because price fixing is illegal, really doesn’t matter who or why, and the students who paid more because of this scheme should be compensated. And having all these schools’ names be dragged through the mud during the court proceedings will further your goal.

Is price fixing illegal? It’s applied very inconsistently. Farmers have their prices fixed. Shkreli wasn’t so lucky. During hurricanes it was illegal to raise prices. But Nixon enacted a price freeze too.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#162

Post by Der_Einzige »

juve1996 wrote: post #151
finitestateuni wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a cal state and paid 7k a year in tuition. 3 years later I am making around 300k TC at a FAANG. Everyone who graduated with me seems to be doing pretty well judging by LinkedIn.

It's ludicrous to suggest that this is an easy outcome. If it were, you wouldn't be making 300k TC.

The reality is that most CS programs even in mid tier state schools weed out the worst to the point that the average grad is definitely making well over 100K per year 2 years out of school.

I saw this with my own school. I have a hard time finding any graduates from my program who aren't gainfully employed right now.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#163

Post by jedberg »

ambyra wrote: post #158
jedberg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how University of California admissions used to work for the most part. The formula was: Weighted GPA * 1000 + SAT Score + SAT II English + SAT II Math + max(remaining SAT II scores) Then they ordered everyone by that number, and if say they were offering 5000 kids admission, the top 2500 would automatically get an offer letter. Then they would work their way down the list reading essays and adding bonuses for…

Would be interesting to see what would happen if they applied that formula per each high school, not per graduating body, with each high school getting some guaranteed college slots. Maybe poorer schools would get more attention this way.

That would basally be admitting the valedictorian and salutatorian from each graduating class.

My understanding is that Brown basically does that. This would sort of back that up:

https://collegeshortcuts.com/blog/brown-acceptance-rate

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#164

Post by tdehnel »

antegamisou wrote: post #41
angmarsbane wrote: post #35

Isn’t part of the benefit of getting into these universities the fact that you get to interact with people from a wealthier economic class? You have the opportunity to meet people who can invest in your ventures or who can introduce you to people who can.

> You have the opportunity to meet people who can invest in your ventures. and who are also completely lacking empathy for the financially challenged at best, disregard and look down upon the less privileged at worst. Both may lead to social isolation of persons with different socioeconomic background attending said schools.

Oh knock it off. I’m not wealthy but I’m sick of this trope where we assume rich people are jerks. It’s a lazy, unintelligent critique, and what’s more, your comment shows that even non-wealthy people can be jerks too.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#165

Post by janalsncm »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #128
janalsncm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that this hypothetical student “excels” at math if their performance can’t be measured? Students can and are already given reasonable accommodations. Sure tests may be imperfect but I am highly skeptical of any claim that math test performance and academic math performance are not highly correlated.

At the levels we’re talking about, the difference between “perfect score” and “still excellent but imperfect score” can be down to one or two errors on the test, basically noise. Given the number of applicants and the willingness to drill testing skills, going by scores would eliminate anyone who makes a minor error. The ability to perform perfectly in high-stress situations is a useful (and learnable) skill - like t…

Yes, and that’s one of the reasons why tests are imperfect. That doesn’t mean that introducing any additional variables is warranted, especially given their associated noise. GPA is garbage, for example, which is why I ignore it on resumes. If the test has unacceptably high variance as you mentioned, the solution is to make the test longer not discount it.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#166

Post by janalsncm »

rayiner wrote: post #127
ironSkillet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with any standardized test is that it can be gamed with enough practice/resources that poor people are way less likely to be able to access. So it's not a cure-all, there are tradeoffs.

Standardized tests are the least game-able metric. In NYC poor Chinese immigrants manage to scrounge together $900 for an SAT prep class. It is much harder for them to figure out what some white college administrator wants to hear in a diversity essay. Or to get a job at some non-profit in China working on some social justice effort appealing to white college administrators. Standardized testing isn’t perfectly merit…

Absolutely. The cost of SAT prep courses are very small in comparison to the immeasurable cost of a lifetime of culture and experience that are necessary to impress an admissions board during an essay or interview. This is why it’s so absolutely disgusting to me to find that schools tended to rate Asian students so low on “personality scores”.

As a side note, I haven’t found any more detailed breakdown of the personality scoring results. Asia is a very diverse place and Asian ethnic groups in the US range from the very richest to some of the poorest.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#167

Post by janalsncm »

ironSkillet wrote: post #91
janalsncm wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically present-day Chinese college admissions are arguably far more meritocratic than American college admissions. The main factor is performance on the Gaokao exam, an 8 hour test which dwarfs the SAT’s 3 hours.

The problem with any standardized test is that it can be gamed with enough practice/resources that poor people are way less likely to be able to access. So it's not a cure-all, there are tradeoffs.

Standardized tests are an imperfect metric. The fact that they’re imperfect doesn’t make all metrics equivalent.

For example, Harvard could simply auction off their seats. That’s transparent at least, if not exactly fair.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#168

Post by boathouse »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #135
AlbertCory wrote: post #102

> Lawyers for the schools said in a court filing that the "plaintiffs' goal in pursuing such discovery is to harass and embarrass, rather than because it is relevant to their actual antitrust claim." > The defense lawyers also called the demand for admissions and development records "intrusive and burdensome." Prediction: the schools lose, and have to turn over the data. Maybe if their argument was on privacy of the…

I guess the ace in their sleeve is that "harass and embarrass" rhymes. It sticks in your mind and will draw your attention every time you see or hear it being used. That's an easy 10x multiplier to the strength of the argument :).

What dialect do you speak that those rhyme?

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#169

Post by AlbertCory »

boathouse wrote: post #168
TeMPOraL wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the ace in their sleeve is that "harass and embarrass" rhymes. It sticks in your mind and will draw your attention every time you see or hear it being used. That's an easy 10x multiplier to the strength of the argument :).

What dialect do you speak that those rhyme?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/ha...

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#170

Post by gigibec »

jedberg wrote: post #65
neonsunset wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A student with a full family and access to tutors, with better mental health and social situation will be able to score significantly better. However, the downside to "solving" this is significantly worse. By giving a headstart to students based on their superficial or socioeconomical characteristics creates perverse incentives in the system and disconnects it from a selection process. Usually, countries that are not…

I agree with you. This should not be solved at the college admissions level. Resources should be provided to younger students with potential to equalize there. But it's still better than doing nothing at all. > Again, and I cannot stress this enough, communism is bad. Again I agree with you. But I'm not sure how that's relevant. Changing the way we do college admissions isn't communism. In fact, admitting students pu…

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