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Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

compactmag.com

41–50 of 59 posts

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is predicated on the ends justifying the means since the author seems to acknowledge that there are some deeply problematic things with colonialism while simultaneously acknowledging that they should have pride in the results. What should be of no surprise to anyone, anywhere, is that people are deeply unmotivated to ever see the ends in a positive light if they were on the other end of that barrel full…

It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth. To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?" Somehow, we are able to…

How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote:

"Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past"

Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in the results of colonialism (re: ends) despite the shame behind their ancestors' actions (re: means), the problem has never been related to how much evil benefits anyone. It's always been about how unnecessary evil is and the fact that there were always better options than evil.

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#42
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> edit: chatGPT version of my posting: While I acknowledge that the spread of hateful messages online can lead to tragic consequences, such as suicide, it is difficult to determine which political side causes more harm through speech. The impact of speech on individuals varies greatly, and not all individuals are equally resilient to criticism. In my opinion, businesses with a monopoly must serve all customers regard…

Your comment is incoherent but it appears your argument is that right wing texts cause people to self harm, so self harm caused by leftist deplatforming is not wrong. Perhaps you should take a moment to read the published article again. This is not the case of targeted harassment with the intent or even ability to cause self harm. It is a case of an academic, who’s job is to produce works that provide an accurate und…

Yes, I made two slightly contradicting points, to see which one was wrong. Thanks for you response.

But no, I asked which political camp caused more deaths by using their voices to influence others. Which is an unfair metric, since not every camp has the same amount of members and not all targets of online opinions are in the same way resilient.

On second thought, the original problem in the article was that people voice their opinions on a book they did not read. I responded here by voicing some possible opinions without knowing all the facts: Is the author in the right or wrong? Is he a scientist that was cancelled due to political outrage, or does some argument against the book have merit? Is he part of a privileged elite of white old men, or did, as you claim, the privileged cancel culture destroy a rightous man out of spite and ignorance? I honestly have no clue, probably none of these.

History is the process of reinterpreting old evidence in the thinking of your current generations' values, too - objectively, every single author surely is flawed. The scientific process should be upheld, so the question for me is, if a free scientific press is damaged, in the US at least, by thinking bans? I am not from the US, but here, everyone that says "is one even still allowed to say" ends the sentence with "that other skin colors are inferior to mine", but usually hides it with "I was born into riches, I don't share with foreigners", and still actually voices their "now-forbidden" opinion.

That's why I replied to this simple "cancel culture" post instead of discussing the posting, about which I have no additional information.

(Actually, comparing just the numbers for the self-harm subset would even "objectively" be unfair when having a far larger number of deaths through more direct means. In the EU, after the '80s, right-winger kill people while left-wingers commit other crimes but mostly stopped with that. So we would need to do a 100-year regression or something - last I checked after Paris in 2015, RAF killed more people than the al quaida in Europe. [Count of any terror attacks per year here: https://de.statista.com/infografik/5378/terrorattacken-in-we..., death tolls are now pretty close though - and blowing up north stream pipelines is probably not in there, since "terror" by most-probably-G9 states is mostly not in any statistics since WE don't do terror, since 1945, by subjective definition] So I am counting civilian movements only, unless we want to count left-wing-ish stalin/lenin vs. right-wingers Hitler et al.)

Or, in the words of ChatGPT for that original, non-edited content:

Thank you for your response. I recognize that my comments were slightly conflicting and I made them to see which one was incorrect. *I now understand that it is not possible to compare the harm caused by speech on either side, as the number of individuals affected and their levels of resilience vary greatly.* [Edit: wow, chatGPT actually got that right. I was making comparisons through an objective lens, because 1. That is what utilitarians and to some extent rationalists, do, and 2. b/c online I am way more into QAnon/Querdenken/Lateral Thinking/Trolling than in real life, where I hate the faulty science and reasoning of these people with pre-disposed opininos. But I still am liable to make the same mistakes. I am no Carl Sagan. Yet.]

I also recognize that comparing the numbers of self-harm incidents caused by speech would not be a fair metric. The number of deaths caused by direct means is far greater and would make any such comparison inherently unfair. Additionally, it would be difficult to accurately compare the harm caused by different political ideologies over the course of 100 years or more, as the definition of terrorism and the statistics surrounding it have changed over time. For this reason, I will limit my analysis to movements and actions taken by civilians, rather than terrorist organizations.

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#43
post #5

I will happily point out that pride in the former empire is exactly what's driving Russian aggression in the Ukraine at this moment.

Does everything have to be so black and white? The article clearly states "pride, as well as shame" Everything to do with colonialism = bad is such a boneheaded simplification, thank god there are academics brave enough to look at it from a non-hysterical perspective Also pride leading to invasion is a non sequitur, Germans can be proud of Autobahns without wanting to invade Poland again

> Everything to do with colonialism = bad

European colonialism. Take a look at Wikipedia's article on Muslim-colonized Spain, and it's almost nothing but praise. The entire opening section doesn't even mention the slavery of non-Muslims that was practiced.

Under the Caliphate of Córdoba, al-Andalus was a center of learning, and the city of Córdoba, the second largest in Europe, became one of the leading cultural and economic centers throughout the Mediterranean Basin, Europe, and the Islamic world. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#44
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the...

We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin…

[deleted]

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth. To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?" Somehow, we are able to…

How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote: "Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past" Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in th…

"Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#46
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote: "Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past" Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in th…

"Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".

Imagine someone saying that Nazis caused good as well as bad and not seeing how that necessarily translates to ends justifying means

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#47

It's sort of extraordinary that the conclusion of the piece is that the book was published and he was paid in full Poor guy

It was successfully cancelled at one publisher, he was just lucky/famous enough to find another. How many people don't get a second chance?

Well, if you look closer, almost none. Controversy sells, and you can become a guest speaker on the "help! In being cancelled!" tour.

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#48
It is interesting to compare this against a letter in the Guardian [1] by one of the chief critics of the project. They are both so keen to insist on rationality!

A quote from the original post: "They [his critics] could engage rationally, even if forcefully."

A quote from [1]: "That debate [on empire] should be equitable, rational and based on all the available evidence."

So I think the debate might be a bit more nuanced than can be gleaned from blog posts and columns? I guess I would be wary of taking a side here without significantly more background reading.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/03/histor...

Re: Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

#49
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".

Imagine someone saying that Nazis caused good as well as bad and not seeing how that necessarily translates to ends justifying means

Imagine someone saying the objective truth, regardless of what tortured implications someone wrings from it.

For example, the Wikipedia article on a different colonial empire, the Umayyad caliphate, is positively aglow with all the good it did (in addition to enslaving some of its subjects): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

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