Earlier quoted context omitted.
If there's a better i.e. more accurate and neutral title, I'd be happy to use it as long as isn't baity, but making accusations about intentional distortion is too baity (that's why I took that out). Edit: this is a tangent, but it's also a weak claim since if you say something about someone's intent, they can just say "no it wasn't" and act like they refuted you. I finally learned not to do that about HN comments af…
Oh, I was just ruminating on the original title of the article rather than commenting on your selection. Sorry for the confusion.
Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
31–39 of 39 posts
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#32The Hungarian wikipedia being overrun by ... how to say this politely? neonazis, yes, that's a polite word, I guess, is a well known fact. I am not at all surprised this happened to the English one as well. Long ago there has been an analysis of how much better organized the "pro life" crowd was online than the "pro choice" and this is just another facet of the same: alas, it seems those on the right are playing this…
Everyone should know, and yet I often see people, in HN comments for example, citing Wikipedia as if it means something. As the great Tycho has said, “The fact of the matter is that all sources of information are not of equal value, and I don't know how or when it became impolitic to suggest it. In opposition to the spirit of Wikipedia, I believe there is such a thing as expertise.” https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic…
Blindly trusting Wikipedia would be foolish, but so would blindly trusting anything else, or blindly mistrusting Wikipedia. Gathering reliable and comprehensive information on any topic you're not an expert on is hard, because you lack the background knowledge and expertise to judge the accuracy of something – basic critical thinking/bullshit detection helps, but will only get you so far.
Wikipedia isn't perfect and has its share of issues, but it's not bad either.
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#33The Hungarian wikipedia being overrun by ... how to say this politely? neonazis, yes, that's a polite word, I guess, is a well known fact. I am not at all surprised this happened to the English one as well. Long ago there has been an analysis of how much better organized the "pro life" crowd was online than the "pro choice" and this is just another facet of the same: alas, it seems those on the right are playing this…
The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? In the Croatian case, the Wikimedia Foundation commissioned a study (a "Disinformation Assessment") that did indeed come to that conclusion. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Wikipedia_Disinform... If you do have info on the Hungarian Wikipedia, a link or two would be appreciated. Thanks.
Quite. It's subtle but the bias is obvious. But, since it's Hungary ... who gives a damn? Have you seen the prime minister?
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? In the Croatian case, the Wikimedia Foundation commissioned a study (a "Disinformation Assessment") that did indeed come to that conclusion. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Wikipedia_Disinform... If you do have info on the Hungarian Wikipedia, a link or two would be appreciated. Thanks.
> The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? Quite. It's subtle but the bias is obvious. But, since it's Hungary ... who gives a damn? Have you seen the prime minister?
I don't speak Hungarian, but DeepL and Google Translate do a reasonable job and I'd be interested in looking into it.
Yes, I'm aware of Hungarians' choice of prime minister and would expect to see that preference reflected in the Hungarian Wikipedia. I just didn't think it was as far out as the Croatian one. If it is – well, people did care about the Croatian one eventually. There are a number of places where it's possible to flag concerns (Wikimedia-l mailing list, Meta-Wiki, Wikipedia Signpost, Wikipedia Weekly, etc.)
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The Hungarian Wikipedia being overrun by neonazis is news to me. Are you sure you didn't mean the Croatian one? Quite. It's subtle but the bias is obvious. But, since it's Hungary ... who gives a damn? Have you seen the prime minister?
Could you name a few prominent Hungarian Wikipedia articles that you feel are problematic? I don't speak Hungarian, but DeepL and Google Translate do a reasonable job and I'd be interested in looking into it. Yes, I'm aware of Hungarians' choice of prime minister and would expect to see that preference reflected in the Hungarian Wikipedia. I just didn't think it was as far out as the Croatian one. If it is – well, pe…
Look at the sources.
There's "Detailed report about a Hungarian expedition" and if you click on the first article, https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu... it literally starts with "There are no such people as Magyarabs". Second sentence "The black Hungarians straight out of a romantic grand novel do not exist."
The other reference https://web.archive.org/web/20050213015534/http://w3.datanet... now that's a neonazi rag.
The whole thing started when in the 30s a couple Egyptians decided to bilk a Hungarian noble wandering around there and got rewarmed by a hustler in the sixties who spent two semesters in Cairo then sold himself as an expert back in Hungary in all matters Egyptian and got a posh job for himself at the public radio as such. His Egyptian dictionary was so shit it never got printed, though. Him sharing a name with one of the most famous archeologists didn't hurt his prospects, of course.
Then in the 90s said rag dug up the whole thing again for nationalistic reasons and now people consider it fact despite the expedition that was sent to find them found nothing. Quite obviously. And, by now, people consider it fact mostly because of Wikipedia...
As for subtlety and for why all your translations are completely pointless can be not found in the Holocaust article https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsid%C3%B3_holokauszt_Magyaror... which, while does paint a picture of cruelty from the Hungarians, almost completely lacks the work of Krisztián Ungváry -- and it's quite important work. It was he who have found in the records that Hungarians sent many more trainloads of Jews than the Germans asked for, so much so the Germans told them to slow down. And now look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriszti%C3%A1n_Ungv%C3%A1ry and tell me, do you see any mention of him being an important Holocaust researcher despite even the Hungarian holocaust article uses him as a source once and uses another article of his as "additional information". (And of course he is only quoted on the forced labor battalions not on the Holocaust itself in Hungary.) Perhaps most importantly, where is https://doi.org/10.1515/9789633861738-007 from this page, not to mention several non-scholarly articles?
What is missing is telling.
As for the influence being known, Klára Sándor was explicitly asked to edit https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely%E2%80%93magyar_ro... and she refused.
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#36Well, considering that currently in Poland it's literally illegal to even suggest Poles have commited any crimes linked with the holocaust, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. One of the most shameful things about this country for me personally.
(disclosure: I'm Polish) This is not true. The legal act that regulates it[0] says (only relevant parts) """ Article 1: This act regulates 1) recording, collecting, developing, maintaining, making available and publishing documents of the state security authorities, obtained and collected from July 22, 1944 to July 31, 1990, as well as Third Reich and USSR security authorities, regarding: a) crimes committed against…
The problem is with this bit:
"Article 55: Whoever publicly and contrary to facts denies the crimes referred to in Article 1, point 1, shall be subject to a fine or imprisonment for up to 3 years. The sentence shall be made public"
It just says "contrary to fact". And as many experts have already pointed out, it allows the prosecutors to define what the "fact" is. Not historians. Today you can freely say that Poles have killed 400 Jews in Jedwabne and yeah maybe you won't get arrested. Tomorrow? With the way the current political system is going? I wouldn't be so sure.
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could you name a few prominent Hungarian Wikipedia articles that you feel are problematic? I don't speak Hungarian, but DeepL and Google Translate do a reasonable job and I'd be interested in looking into it. Yes, I'm aware of Hungarians' choice of prime minister and would expect to see that preference reflected in the Hungarian Wikipedia. I just didn't think it was as far out as the Croatian one. If it is – well, pe…
Even in English, I have been fighting to delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people but I simply gave up. Look at the sources. There's "Detailed report about a Hungarian expedition" and if you click on the first article, https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu... it literally starts with "There are no such people as Magyarabs". Second sentence "The black Hungarians straight out of a rom…
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even in English, I have been fighting to delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people but I simply gave up. Look at the sources. There's "Detailed report about a Hungarian expedition" and if you click on the first article, https://web.archive.org/web/20080605115547/http://www.mno.hu... it literally starts with "There are no such people as Magyarabs". Second sentence "The black Hungarians straight out of a rom…
Brilliant. Thank you.
You can check either https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9pes_kr%C3%B3nika or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum for any mentions of the uncomfortable truth that this is more a medieval comics than any valid source of history. Once again, even if you consider this debatable -- to be frank, it's not -- it really should be mentioned the historicity of this is heavily questionable.
Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Wass to https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wass_Albert . The English one at least talks at length of why he was sentenced to death as a war criminal and what happened later but in the Hungarian one? Almost all of that is missing. Needless to say, the current regime and even further right elements valorize him.
Re: Distortion of the history of the Holocaust on Wikipedia
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Brilliant. Thank you.
Want more? Check the article on the Hungarian conquest: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honfoglal%C3%A1s and search for the word "genetika". It's genetics in Hungarian. Archaeogenetics has been painting a very interesting and rather different picture compared to the traditions and there is not. a single. mention. of. this. Absolutely nothing! This research has been ongoing since 2008, it's not like it's too new. It als…