Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#261

Post by com2kid » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 8:36 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #251

com2kid wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Building dense cities that can be accessed by bike and on foot would have the same effect. I love density, but, in my experience this is not true. London doesn't have a large competitive market of grocery stores. Neither does Boston or New York City. Density means higher real estate prices, that means grocery store sizes go down, and the barrier to entry goes up. Yes you can get more small specialty shops (which is…

Huh? London has Tesco, Sainsbury's, Waitrose, Morrisons, Aldi, Lidl, Asda, Co-op Food, Iceland and Marks & Spencer Food. Here's a map of all of them: https://maps.walkingclub.org.uk/shops/ Alternative map: https://www.toptiplondon.com/food-drink/london-supermarkets-...

When I was doing AirBnB[1] in London, I noticed that the vast majority of London's grocery stores were quite small compared to the stores in America. The small co-op near me is about the size of an average London grocery store, and the selection of stock is poor enough that I really can't get much shopping done there.

London does have larger stores, but it isn't like in America where the average grocery store is, well, huge.

(Obviously some chains such as Asda have larger stores!)

On the west coast at least, American grocery stores are either small like Trader Joe's (Aldi sized I believe), tiny local ethnic stores, or you start getting into larger and larger categories that start at "really damn big" and end up at "you can get lost here".

The "you can get lost here" sized stores typically have much cheaper prices, and families go there on weekends to buy essentials (meat, veggies) to stay on budget.

All in all I'm not saying it is a bad thing, having a higher density of grocery stores is nice, it means going to the grocery store isn't a dedicated trip, but those cheap huge discount stores are very nice to have around.

[1] I like to stay for awhile in the middle of cities so I can actually shop at local stores, cook some food myself, etc.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#262

Post by com2kid » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 8:37 PM UTC

fineIllregister wrote: post #243

com2kid wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Building dense cities that can be accessed by bike and on foot would have the same effect. I love density, but, in my experience this is not true. London doesn't have a large competitive market of grocery stores. Neither does Boston or New York City. Density means higher real estate prices, that means grocery store sizes go down, and the barrier to entry goes up. Yes you can get more small specialty shops (which is…

That doesn't match my experience in Boston. Multiple neighborhoods I lived in had walking access to Stop & Shop, Star Market, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Target, bfresh, cheap overstock/clearance stores, a farmers market, and other independent grocers, many catering to nationalities/ethnicities with large subcommunities in the area. Just a train or bus ride away I could go to Market Basket, Roche Brothers, Wegmans, a…

May depend on the part of Boston, my wife used to live there and her area didn't have much, she was either walking a mile or taking the train to a different area.

Different parts of Boston is incredibly varied though, I shouldn't have made a general statement.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#263

Post by f1yght » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 8:38 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #124

duxup wrote: post #2

I like the idea of walking 15 minutes to get all the things. But man when I think of the costs involved in making sure there is a High School (in the US they tend to be large and draw from a distance) within 15 minutes of everywhere (no small cost to drop in a high school somewhere), or plop down a grocery store in a neighborhood ... that sounds both super expensive and politically difficult, and for some good reason…

Seattle doesn't have nearly enough density to have that many high schools. Given the ever falling birth rate, it likely never will. The density would need to be obscenely high. Figure high schools have 4x the number of students that elementary schools do, and we'd need 2x the elementary schools to make them all walkable, that means Seattle would have to have 8x the number of students in high school than it currently…

I would love smaller more local schools, but It's worth noting that unfortunately a bunch of the schools have reduced enrollment and the funding is per kid. I don't know how to fix it but I hope it doesn't lead to closing even more schools.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#264

Post by MivLives » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 8:47 PM UTC

teucris wrote: post #114

Incredible analysis! As a Seattleite I can say the conclusions here are very close to accurate, with the key additional note being that distance is not the only thing that defines walkability. Seattle has some of the most confounding civil engineering I’ve ever seen, and I’ve lived in five cities and visited dozens more. Here are some things that make a pedestrian life near impossible in my neighborhood: - two high-t…

It's interesting how variable that is depending where you are. The area I live in Seattle will have people wave you through the stop sign if you're a pedestrian, has side walks on every street, and is grid based except where i5 runs through.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#265

Post by chabons » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 8:54 PM UTC

bradford wrote: post #191

chabons wrote: post #85

Interesting how the visualization highlights the Eastlake and Montlake neighborhoods (along the south bank of the canal northeast of downtown) as walkability outliers. When I was newer to the Seattle area and looking for housing I did a similar exercise and charted the location of grocery stores. I was surprised that those neighborhoods just didn't have any grocery stores, especially given their proximity to downtown…

> I was surprised that [Eastlake and Montlake] just didn't have any grocery stores ... Given the amount of investment the city/state is making to improve the WA-520 corridor Montlake had a small grocery store that was torn down precisely because of the 520 construction. (I can't speak for Eastlake). 520 is a highway after all, and highways are hostile to walkability for a multitude or reasons. (this fact still remain…

> Montlake had a small grocery store that was torn down precisely because of the 520 construction.

Right, I forgot about the Montlake Market. That closed before my search, but I did hear about it.

> 520 is a highway after all, and highways are hostile to walkability for a multitude or reasons

Yeah, that's fair. I'd argue that 520 in it's final incarnation will be a little bit less hostile than most, as it's mostly over water, and the lids over the 2 land crossings (with parks + transit) will partially mitigate the walkability concerns. It'll still be a noisy eyesore though.

Geographically, Montlake is in a pretty desirable location. It will have quick transit connections to downtown Seattle+SLU, UW (and light rail), and the eastside. I imagine the future only blocker to development will be zoning and pushback from existing residents.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#266

Post by vanilla_nut » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 8:59 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #116

kortilla wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they though? Covid just forced the development of technologies even further to make working from home even more viable than before. Millennials followed the boomers right into the suburbs as they got older and that was before there was a path to killing the commute. When Gen Z can get by without a commute and live in social media, where is their push for cities going to come from?

A lot of what we consider "elite" US cities were losing population well into the 1990s. While I don't think the WFH trend is as widespread as people in some bubbles think it is, it's probably an open question whether the latest young college-educated cohort will move into cities for a while like some of their predecessors did.

Young people want things to do. I'm right on the divide between Millenials and Gen Z (the MillenialZ generation, if you'll forgive my poor portmanteau skills) and many college students I knew during covid have done one of the following:

- secured a remote job and settled down in their college city

- as a remote worker, followed a significant other or close friend to a city where they have to work in person

- found a hybrid role that allows some in-person work in a city

I think the "work remotely, from your college city" trend is a positive one. I attended college in a small city with a serious brain drain problem (aside from medical folks) and it's nice to see more and more classmates move back to that city as the brain drain reverses.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#267

Post by sbierwagen » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

watermelon59 wrote: post #154

teucris wrote: post #114

Incredible analysis! As a Seattleite I can say the conclusions here are very close to accurate, with the key additional note being that distance is not the only thing that defines walkability. Seattle has some of the most confounding civil engineering I’ve ever seen, and I’ve lived in five cities and visited dozens more. Here are some things that make a pedestrian life near impossible in my neighborhood: - two high-t…

Seattle has so many intersections that are completely bonkers. They’re not only poorly walkable, they also make driving extremely stressful.

Seattle's street plan is so stupid it has its own wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_layout_of_Seattle

>These three grid patterns (due north, 32 degrees west of north, and 49 degrees west of north) are the result of a disagreement between David Swinson "Doc" Maynard, whose land claim lay south of Yesler Way, and Arthur A. Denny and Carson D. Boren, whose land claims lay to the north (with Henry Yesler and his mill soon brought in between Denny and the others):[2] Denny and Boren preferred that their streets follow the Elliott Bay shoreline, while Maynard favored a grid based on the cardinal directions for his (mostly flat, mostly wet) claim. All three were competing to have the downtown built on their land.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#268

Post by bluGill » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 9:14 PM UTC

j_heffe wrote: post #137

coldpie wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly shocking how much damage the car has done to our cities and lives. Here in the Twin Cities, we have three enormous concrete canyons completely dividing up the city[1], destroying any chance at walkability or density for miles. All for the sake of people who don't even live in the cities to drive 30 minutes in their personal luxury steel cages from their suburban mansions to spend 30 hours a week here and…

Not to mention the opposition of public transportation here. People are already up in arms about the light rail expansion cost, plus the people angry about losing parking on Hennepin Ave for the proposed 24 hr bus lane.

I grew up there. The public transit was always worthless for anyone who wanted to do something more than go to work downtown. It is no wonder most people oppose anything: so many years of bad service makes even good ideas look like throwing more good money after bad (and like most cities they have plenty of bad ideas they are funding as well)

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#269

Post by sbierwagen » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 9:18 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #82

The toggleable map in there is amazing and you can really see how it's the schools and libraries letting the map down... which is distinct in that they're the government-provided services. Here in Ontario we had a knock-down fight like a decade ago as the province decided to save money by shutting down unneeded schools, ending a lot of locality in the school system... and ever since the school boards have been scramb…

I would say that the right wing conspiracy theory is half being locked in a ghetto, and the other half just who you're being locked in with, given right wing views on immigration and the "police abolition" movement.

Re: Is Seattle a 15-minute city? It depends on where you want to walk

#270

Post by hinkley » Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 9:20 PM UTC

teucris wrote: post #114

Incredible analysis! As a Seattleite I can say the conclusions here are very close to accurate, with the key additional note being that distance is not the only thing that defines walkability. Seattle has some of the most confounding civil engineering I’ve ever seen, and I’ve lived in five cities and visited dozens more. Here are some things that make a pedestrian life near impossible in my neighborhood: - two high-t…

Stuck in traffic I often wondered why downtown Seattle is in the worst spot possible on the east side of Puget Sound. For a small town it's a fine spot, for a major metropolitan area it's right at the chokepoint of a narrow north-south corridor.

That may be one of the reasons. If you're in Kent and you want to sell strawberries to Everett you basically have to go through Seattle. The other is that Seattle originally was going to be founded in West Seattle, but the weather was so bad they moved off the peninsula but in the lee of it. The Port of Seattle is built into a river delta that was probably only traversible in the mid 1900's so just moving to the lee side would have not helped with access.

But here we are 150 years later with a city built like a corset.