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AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

blog.codeanywhere.com

51–60 of 76 posts

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#51
Idle comment: a largely-unexamined subtext in almost every critique is that you can substitute "the average person" for "the AI" and the critique is exactly as valid, to the extent that it is.

Where "average" means, imperfect, and somewhere shy of domain expert.

Easy example: "Freelancers paid below prevailing market rate: Convenient crutch or recipe for disaster"

AI bots based on LLM are living mirrors, reflecting the status quo of humanity, and the average human is pretty average, and many are below average and a lot of things.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#52
FUD. I used ChatGPT yesterday for some bash scripting. I find ChatGPT useful in situations where "I know what I don't know" e.g., I can never quite remember the array syntax in bash, I forget what flags I want for grep or curl to do the task at hand. Sure, I can read the man page (and I am a big fan of reading the man page), but the AI assistant gets me to my destination much faster after I interactively iterate to arrive at what I want. Yes, I have learned the hard way that you should not trust ChatGPT too much and you should view its output with a lot of skepticism. But overall it is a huge advancement in developer productivity, and can serve as a learning tool as well.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#53
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important point I've also made. "How can we reasonably verify the output and know it is correct? At least when using AI to create code, we can easily test the code to see if it performs according to the desired behavior. However, that is no easy task for most general information. It is unclear at this point how difficult it will be to improve AI in this regard." from - https://dakara.substack.com/p/ai-and-…

This is really one of the great things about Twitter, etc. Follow a few people who are proven (by their predictive accuracy) to be experts in their fields. Their comments on the quality of claims in their field of expertise is much more valuable than the reports being made by "experts" presented on corporate media, or by LLMs.

Agreed. Essentially decentralized access to information via Twitter.

AI is going to bring about the new era of great centralization. One tool to rule them all. Many concerning issues.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#54

Here's my concern with this. Is that the AI is good at generating "mostly correct" code, that will have subtle errors, so less skilled coders just take the output of whatever the LLM spits and assume it's correct, later it turns out there is a bug. The person who submitted the code doesn't understand the code, because they didn't bother learning it just that it was mostly correct. Instead of discovering and fixing th…

> Is that the AI is good at generating "mostly correct" code, that will have subtle errors, so less skilled coders just take the output of whatever the LLM spits and assume it's correct, later it turns out there is a bug. Not unlike the code generated by the fresh out of bootcamp, careless rookie, who isn't trying to make things work so-much-as collect a paycheck. But hell, at this point I need a job too, maybe I sho…

Sure, but I think the imagined hellscape is one where the entire stack of developers don't know what they're doing.

It's like the ostensible toaster company that has outsourced design, engineering, manufacturing, marketing, sales, HR, everything I’ll the way to the janitor. The question then is: what does the toaster company even know about making toasters? If you play this game long enough, then you arrive at a point where entire sectors operate this way. Keep going and the entire economy works this way. At some point we have to stop outsourcing, or we'll lose a lot of knowledge when the original creators of that knowledge kick the bucket. At this point we can't rely on that knowledge being encoded in language models.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#55
post #45
post #37

“Automobiles: a convenient crutch for people who can’t ride horses, or a recipe for disaster?” “Word processors: a convenient crutch for people who can’t type, or a recipe for disaster?” God these headlines are going to be hilarious in ten years. Yes, AI code is primitive today. The first implementations sometimes get basic stuff wrong and often get complicated stuff wrong. But the state of the art is evolving daily.…

Perhaps in ten years, till then I'd like software to be clearly labeled with "contains AI generated code" when that is the case.

Sure, just as soon as we get those “contains code from new college hires” label I’ve been asking for.

Relying on perfect coding skills is a losing game. Way better to have healthy code review and testing processes that assume your developers are fallible.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really one of the great things about Twitter, etc. Follow a few people who are proven (by their predictive accuracy) to be experts in their fields. Their comments on the quality of claims in their field of expertise is much more valuable than the reports being made by "experts" presented on corporate media, or by LLMs.

Agreed. Essentially decentralized access to information via Twitter. AI is going to bring about the new era of great centralization. One tool to rule them all. Many concerning issues.

I don't think so...

The general populace will use the crippled AIs presented by mainstream corporations and governments.

Anyone who cares about their information will use un-crippled AIs operating without guardrails, which are always available to monitor what they read and hear, and comment on it.

Sort of like when my relatives call me to analyze a potential Phishing email -- I don't do anything difficult; view the raw mail; check the DKIM signing and SPF validity, look at the full URLs of originating servers vs. the claimed From: and the document contents' claimed source, verify all transited MTAs, check the contents for malicious looking payloads, etc.

Any half-decently trained LLM can do all of this, instantly and trivially, and lay out the evidence in an understandable fashion for a non-technical user.

Imagine that, but amplified by an LLM trained to recognize and categorize arguments in a variety of technical fields. Not to tell you what to believe -- but to categorize the claims by its heritage vs. the main groupings of theories in that field, and then give a set of links to highly rated "for" and "against" arguments.

I don't need some LLM trained by a partisan, with guard-rails set up by some corporation's legal and HR departments. I don't think most people will stand for that, when we have laptops that can already run reasonably capable LLMs w/ training on focussed datasets!

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#57
post #37

“Automobiles: a convenient crutch for people who can’t ride horses, or a recipe for disaster?” “Word processors: a convenient crutch for people who can’t type, or a recipe for disaster?” God these headlines are going to be hilarious in ten years. Yes, AI code is primitive today. The first implementations sometimes get basic stuff wrong and often get complicated stuff wrong. But the state of the art is evolving daily.…

>God these headlines are going to be hilarious in ten years.

We'll see. I think you're pulling an "apples to oranges" here, comparing the AI situation to the advent of automobiles and computers/word processing.

The big difference is the typical application of the technology. By comparison, AI is absolutely RIFE with fraud & lazy get-rich-quick schemes - on an absolutely unprecedented scale & scope. Just like cryptocurrency: art generation/NFTs, SEO arms race, generated blogs, generated articles, etc. If you look at ChatGPT prompt repositories, these type of prompts are virtually always filling the top several pages when sorting by ratings/views.

I'm more than a little concerned with where things are headed as the internet gets more and more crapped up by AI generated hot-air, riddled with factual inaccuracies. Another concern is, as more companies adopt & rely these tools for regular use, they often downsize their workforces in the process and lose valuable subject matter experts (knowledge) along the way.

There's also the fact that this is going to compound in later training models. I'm not sure where exactly the demarcation point will ultimately lie, but I think we're going to end up thinking of the Internet as two main epochs: "pre-AI" and "post-AI".

IMO: All AI-generated or AI-assisted content should be clearly tagged as such.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#58

I hate to even reply to this because it's falling into the author's trap. But, it's the typical new-tech clickbait. There's no data to back up their alarmist, knee-jerk hand wringing, just like when people thought novels were bad for people [1], or when writing would ruin our memories [2]. This article will be looked at similarly in a few years. [1] https://archive.nytimes.com/op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0... [2]…

> There's no data to back up their alarmist, knee-jerk hand wringing, just like when people thought novels were bad for people [1], or when writing would ruin our memories [2].

Before we knew about germs the "data" suggested that we could bleed out evil tumors to cure illness, or similarly that the sun revolved around the earth. Would you also have labeled such conjecture as alarmist, knee-jerk hand wringing? A lack of data by no means invalidates a hypothesis, on the contrary it encourages further investigation, which leads to scientific progress.

I found it ironic that you referenced Socrates as an example of such alarmist claims, because the way I interpreted what he said is that without truly understanding a thing, and instead relying upon rote recitation, one could only continue to repeat the conclusions that others had painstakingly worked toward, but they would not be able to explain why or how, only that it is.

You need look no further than the embarrassing circus that was "fact checking" during recent political cycles to see that the concerns Socrates held have in fact come to fruition. Without any evidence except for a tweet hordes of people would confidently and voraciously defend a stance they knew nothing about, often times being completely wrong.

SOCRATES: "The same is true of written words. You’d think they were speaking as if they had some understanding, but if you question anything that has been said because you want to learn more, it continues to signify just that very same thing forever. When it has once been written down, every discourse roams about everywhere, reaching indiscriminately those with understanding no less than those who have no business with it, and it doesn’t know to whom it should speak and to whom it should not."

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#59
post #49

Here's my concern with this. Is that the AI is good at generating "mostly correct" code, that will have subtle errors, so less skilled coders just take the output of whatever the LLM spits and assume it's correct, later it turns out there is a bug. The person who submitted the code doesn't understand the code, because they didn't bother learning it just that it was mostly correct. Instead of discovering and fixing th…

So how about just prompting it with the task of not only producing the code, but also test cases to go along with it? Somebody please make a SaaS out of this idea, with a fancy tailwind sales page and a “generous free tier”. :-P

Now you have to check generated code and generated test cases for correctness, instead of just code.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Essentially decentralized access to information via Twitter. AI is going to bring about the new era of great centralization. One tool to rule them all. Many concerning issues.

I don't think so... The general populace will use the crippled AIs presented by mainstream corporations and governments. Anyone who cares about their information will use un-crippled AIs operating without guardrails, which are always available to monitor what they read and hear, and comment on it. Sort of like when my relatives call me to analyze a potential Phishing email -- I don't do anything difficult; view the r…

I hope that is the case, but I am doubtful of the overall success. My reasoning being looking at the lack of success of decentralized competition of big tech for search and social media. Other than crypto currency, these other web3 attempts just haven't been largely successful.

Mostly due to the fact the most people will opt for features and convenience over privacy and liberty. The people using Brave, Minds etc will likely use non gated AI, but I suspect the most everyone else will not. Hope I'm wrong.

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