Live data from Hacker News

AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

blog.codeanywhere.com

31–40 of 76 posts

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#31

I hate to even reply to this because it's falling into the author's trap. But, it's the typical new-tech clickbait. There's no data to back up their alarmist, knee-jerk hand wringing, just like when people thought novels were bad for people [1], or when writing would ruin our memories [2]. This article will be looked at similarly in a few years. [1] https://archive.nytimes.com/op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0... [2]…

Not gonna lie, this is kind of the answer I was aiming for when I wrote this. Never did I say that AI is bad or shouldn't be used ever. I just think that it's value must be understood fully, whether you're using it for coding or just need to rephrase 2 sentences for an essay.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#32
Here's my concern with this. Is that the AI is good at generating "mostly correct" code, that will have subtle errors, so less skilled coders just take the output of whatever the LLM spits and assume it's correct, later it turns out there is a bug. The person who submitted the code doesn't understand the code, because they didn't bother learning it just that it was mostly correct. Instead of discovering and fixing the source of the error they just go in and discover where the error is output and slap some more AI generated code over it to squash the bug.

Now you may be saying "what's the big deal with that? That happens all the time all over the place."

The issue is that the biggest thing AI brings is it allows you to generate lots of code, very fast. So we have more and more code, that is less and less understood by any human being.

Eventually no one has any idea what the code is doing in the first place, and what ends up happening is the Cult Mechanicus of Warhammer 40k we become tech priests running around performing arbitrary and inane rituals to appease "the machine spirit" because no one anywhere has any idea how the dang program actually works.

Like we've all heard horror stories of the Oracle DB code base, imagine if that started to become common. I mean people talk about how AI helps them generate code faster, but to be honest I find most issues are the result of too much code, rather than too little.

My point is I grow concerned about the ability of AI to generate code and the effect that is going to have on increasing the amount of code while reducing understanding.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#33
post #28

Reminds me of the arguments against 4GLs, Low/No Code, IDEs, Code Coloring, Intellisense, automatic refactoring, and auto-completion. I used to think you had to be able to work in C to be a "real programmer" and have learned that a lot of good applications have been created by programmers not using C and some that have never used C. Before C it was assembly, and machine code before that. AI is a tool that all program…

how can you use a tool potentionally generating hidden bugs into its suggestions "correctly"? and/or legally ambigious output? these are not important for everyone, but they are to me..

Write tests? The skill moves from remembering incantations to being able to define a clear spec in the form of prompts and tests. Basically, programming becomes more declarative.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#34

To be optimistic in the medium term, the spread of AI code generators among novices will put pressure on languages and tooling to become even more idiot proof. That's not a bad thing! You AI assistant may not be able to get everything right within its training data and resource allocation, and you might be too inexperienced to know what it did wrong, but languages and toolchains can adapt to better spot/describe/reso…

I think their is a fair amount of Javascript and before that PHP floating around indicates we should not be making it easier for idiots to write software.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#35

Here's my concern with this. Is that the AI is good at generating "mostly correct" code, that will have subtle errors, so less skilled coders just take the output of whatever the LLM spits and assume it's correct, later it turns out there is a bug. The person who submitted the code doesn't understand the code, because they didn't bother learning it just that it was mostly correct. Instead of discovering and fixing th…

My hope is this will mostly translate into being able to distinguish between who really knows what they're doing (the AI is a tool to be used for some tasks and its work is to be scrutinized like anything I'd find on GitHub or elsewhere) and those who are barely hacking it in the field, but I also worry about what you're describing.

Like color/exposure auto-balancing tools in video editing. They can be really useful and can often produce solid color/exposure results! But most of the time they only get you 80% of the way or sometimes just spit out really ugly results. Ultimately auto-balancing didn't ruin editing - mediocre editors can't get by on it - so hopefully we don't see that here!

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#36
Was this article AI written?

This is exactly the same format of argument that convinced me as a learner to use notepad++ for years, which I now believe to be a garbage idea. IDEs provide so much important contextual information - a copilot program to show you different techniques would be helpful in a similar vein.

Caveat: chatGPT is a chat program, that it can produce working code in places is a coincidence, it would not be appropriate for this use

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#37
“Automobiles: a convenient crutch for people who can’t ride horses, or a recipe for disaster?”

“Word processors: a convenient crutch for people who can’t type, or a recipe for disaster?”

God these headlines are going to be hilarious in ten years.

Yes, AI code is primitive today. The first implementations sometimes get basic stuff wrong and often get complicated stuff wrong.

But the state of the art is evolving daily. It’s somewhere between ignorance and gatekeeping to act like the issues we see today (which are already much fewer than we say a year ago) are so endemic to the concept of generated code that the whole thing is a terrible idea.

Most code will be written by AI. You can choose to adapt and leverage that, or you can choose to be that guy who insists that your field is the one true place that we should resist automation (for the good of the world, of course, not any self-interest, that’s just a coincidence).

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#38
I think there's a secret third thing, domain specific fundamentals/boilerplate.

I've had good results with code generation for minimal proof-of concept things, like 'show me code for [maze construction algorithm]' or 'visualize this platonic solid in mathplotlib, with numeric labels on every vertex' or 'fetch data from https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/34741898.json and build a pandas dataframe from it'.

I've come to prefer it to visiting Stack Overflow when I need to get up to speed on a new thing, so that I don't have to read people's petty ego trips or irrelevant answers. I also find it responsive when I give carefully detailed prompts to develop an algorithm, as it saves me a lot of typing mistakes and syntactical screwups, eg mixing up dimensions in 3d or flipping [x:] and [:x]. Debugging sometimes feels faster than on my own code, because I didn't mentally commit to the error and create a blind spot for myself.

It's much easier to get good results by specifying incremental (across multiple responses) or stepwise instructions in pseudocode, rather than big bang problem statements. Although the latter occasionally kick out magically-working complete programs, they're much more likely to yield catapults: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aCgSwmm5Ho

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#39

I hate to even reply to this because it's falling into the author's trap. But, it's the typical new-tech clickbait. There's no data to back up their alarmist, knee-jerk hand wringing, just like when people thought novels were bad for people [1], or when writing would ruin our memories [2]. This article will be looked at similarly in a few years. [1] https://archive.nytimes.com/op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0... [2]…

By definition, there's never any data to judge innovations. Obviously some opinions turns out to be wrong, but if everybody just waits for data before doing anything, nothing will ever happen. So if you don't like what they are saying, at least try to provide a counterargument.

Re: AI assistants: The convenient crutch for new developers or a recipe for disaster

#40
post #16

At some point, I realized most developers don't need to be very good. The ones with talent will get good, the mediocre ones can use crutches, which will probably make them better. We can all get on with our lives.

I find it at least mildly amusing that it seems like we spend a considerable amount of time trying to make things easier for ourselves as developers, but if you succeed too hard, people begin to get nervous or angry. Kinda like the negative reactions you'll see to no-code tools. Some of it must be rational in some way, but I have to believe a lot of it is insecurity. To be fair, if AI could do what I do better than m…

Let's hope chatgpt&co will not end up like no-code which overpromised for decades and didn't deliver. But surely I'm only having a negative outburst here. ;)
Post reply on HN