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Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

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Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#81

Post by mbesto »

LarryMullins wrote: post #75
mbesto wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One wonders why Apple gets high praise for "hiring cautiously". Have you not read this forum for the past week? It's been riddled with techies ragging on tech CEO's for "blaming the economy" and not blaming themselves for over-hiring.

The part I don't quite get (except insofar as it's an understandable emotional reaction) is why people are mad at companies hiring more people than they should have and then eventually laying them off a few years later. Would it have been better for those people if they were never hired in the first place, never had a few years of getting paid for extraneous work? Is the trauma of getting laid off really so great tha…

I don't get it either. 100% agree with your sentiment.

The HN mob in general is pretty level headed, but its like someone kicked over the beehive.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#82

Post by trilobyte »

ep103 wrote: post #35
ceejayoz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Nintendo's approach, and I like Apple's approach as well. I think it shows a lot more respect for employees than "hire as much as possible, then cut deep ASAP if fortunes change"; big firing rounds can be devastating to both the folks who go and the folks who stay.

I've generally found that if you can't measure something well, large American companies act extremely poorly with regards to that thing. Its well understood that layoffs destroy the morale of your employees, and that they drive out a huge percentage of employees, and specifically the ones who have the best alternative options. But I imagine that measuring the impact of brain drain from a layoff after a subsequent ove…

> I've generally found that if you can't measure something well, large American companies act extremely poorly with regards to that thing.

You've got it. The number of companies I've worked with who talk about being "data-driven" and who do not use any data for a majority of their decision making is ridiculous.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#83

Post by pydry »

antoniuschan99 wrote: post #55
lapcat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most layoffs are happening in growth businesses that aren’t even profitable on paper. Google? Facebook? Microsoft? All very profitable, all doing layoffs.

I'm guessing Google and Facebooks profit centers are much more narrow? Eg. Google Ads. Facebook has the Metaverse Black Hole whereas has Googles countless endeavours (eg. Chat)

If this were about cutting unprofitable divisions rather than cutting people/wages then the Metaverse would probably have been killed. Still kicking.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#84

Post by inetknght »

drawfloat wrote: post #57
mabbo wrote: post #32

Apple's underlying economics haven't changed, so they have not had any reason to over-hire in the first place. Amazon, Google, Meta, Shopify and others are all e-commerce based. There was a clear trend that e-commerce had shifted up due to the pandemic, and looked to be permanent. That bet was wrong, so they all had layoffs. Other companies were willing to hire lots of developers because the ROI on devs was good comp…

I still can't believe major corporations thought the shift to ecommerce from the pandemic "looked to be permanent". More people than not spent 2 years complaining they couldn't leave the house and rushing out to the pub/shops/holidays the minute restrictions dropped. It was certainly a possibility, but staggers my mind that companies of this size all decided it was a sureity. If I were to be uncharitable, this is the…

> Lots of people still had to go to work F2F, lots of people spent it cooped up in 30m2 apartments with flatmates they hate.

I assume by `F2F` you mean "face-to-face"?

I think that's a matter of perspective. In my echo chamber, people live with flatmates that they get along with just fine and are happy that they don't have to go to an office to do work that could be done at home.

> More people than not spent 2 years complaining they couldn't leave the house

So... perhaps they do indeed want to "leave the house". But I think they still don't want to go to the office when they can work from home.

I think e-commerce is indeed shifted-up relative to the start of the pandemic. I think things that e-commerce can't do well are still where people want to leave the house. As you said, pubs/window shopping (not quite shopping itself)/holidays.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#87

Post by inetknght »

etempleton wrote: post #53
wand3r wrote: post #33

> Apple, meanwhile, was more cautious. Its headcount increased just 20% from 2020 to 2022 At Apples size this is still pretty huge. At least, I thought it was until I saw that Amazon, Meta and Salesforce basically DOUBLED in 2 years. If this data is correct isnt that insane? How can you effectively double orgs of this size over a 2 year period? Its not like a startup with 50 people or something. I guess I was out of…

Growing too fast is damaging to both culture and productivity. You have a bunch of people starting that are still learning. Depending on the job and the person it can take a full year to be fully competent in a job. Apple was smart to move slower. They are probably one of the best run companies in the world.

> [Apple is] probably one of the best run companies in the world.

I would argue that perhaps Apple's business side of things is arguably well-run. I personally disagree; I think that since Tim Cook has taken over, Apple's business focus is more on short-term gains instead of long-term quality.

But I would also strongly argue that their software side of things has been trending downward (especially in terms of quality) since Tim Cook took over.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#88

Post by ted_bunny »

drawfloat wrote: post #57
mabbo wrote: post #32

Apple's underlying economics haven't changed, so they have not had any reason to over-hire in the first place. Amazon, Google, Meta, Shopify and others are all e-commerce based. There was a clear trend that e-commerce had shifted up due to the pandemic, and looked to be permanent. That bet was wrong, so they all had layoffs. Other companies were willing to hire lots of developers because the ROI on devs was good comp…

I still can't believe major corporations thought the shift to ecommerce from the pandemic "looked to be permanent". More people than not spent 2 years complaining they couldn't leave the house and rushing out to the pub/shops/holidays the minute restrictions dropped. It was certainly a possibility, but staggers my mind that companies of this size all decided it was a sureity. If I were to be uncharitable, this is the…

A more concrete uncharitable explanation: if you're one of those execs who only cares about next quarter, convincing people that a temporary situation is permanent would be one way to leverage your ideas.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#89

Post by lapcat »

LarryMullins wrote: post #75
mbesto wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One wonders why Apple gets high praise for "hiring cautiously". Have you not read this forum for the past week? It's been riddled with techies ragging on tech CEO's for "blaming the economy" and not blaming themselves for over-hiring.

The part I don't quite get (except insofar as it's an understandable emotional reaction) is why people are mad at companies hiring more people than they should have and then eventually laying them off a few years later. Would it have been better for those people if they were never hired in the first place, never had a few years of getting paid for extraneous work? Is the trauma of getting laid off really so great tha…

It all depends. The main problem is that nearly every tech company is now doing mass layoffs nearly simultaneously. This could lead to long-term unemployment for many engineers, even driving some out of the industry altogether, which could wipe out any short-term salary gains of the past couple years.

Mass hiring distorts the entire job market. It draws people out of safer, more stable jobs. It draws people into the industry from other industries. It draws students into the industry, and into industry-related academic areas. If the gains were only short-term, that's not necessarily a good tradeoff for employees.

Re: Apple avoids job cuts because it didn’t overhire like Google and Amazon

#90

Post by steve1977 »

wand3r wrote: post #33

> Apple, meanwhile, was more cautious. Its headcount increased just 20% from 2020 to 2022 At Apples size this is still pretty huge. At least, I thought it was until I saw that Amazon, Meta and Salesforce basically DOUBLED in 2 years. If this data is correct isnt that insane? How can you effectively double orgs of this size over a 2 year period? Its not like a startup with 50 people or something. I guess I was out of…

> How can you effectively double orgs of this size over a 2 year period?

Apparently you can't.

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