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Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

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Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#81

Post by 29083011397778 »

DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote: post #57
jacquesm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask a plumber to show you their crawlsuit and describe the last month or so of their work and you being to appreciate their rates.

I talked to 3 plumbers recently when I bought a partially built house. First guy was a "commercial" plumber working on new builds only. Second guy was a "home renovation" plumber. Both these 2 plumbers won't go near a clogged toilet. Third guy specialized on clogged pipes and home emergency repair.

> Third guy specialized on clogged pipes and home emergency repair.

And knows anyone calling him is likely over a barrel and willing to pay big money to make the problem go away. Odd hours, but a respectable hourly rate (assuming he has some skin in the game vis-a-vis owning the business).

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#82

Post by type0 »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #79
feoren wrote: post #62

No, "learn to code" is now "learn to read". Long ago, people could get work as a scribe or scrivener -- knowing how to read and write was, on its own, enough to get you a job. As literacy became more prevalent, it wasn't enough to "just read". You had to "read and ____". Similar to business; I would not recommend someone get "just a business degree" so they can apply to any company in the world. I'd recommend they ge…

You need to work with some Gen. A or whatever comes after gen z. They have a level of computer literacy that is shockingly bad. They use computers everyday, but only within the walled gardens of google classroom/iOs/Android. I taught an after school HTML/CSS for grade school age kids, and the majority of them didn't know about the concept of a directory structure. Even just saving a text file (instead of having a fil…

What is really troubling is that many kids are impatient with technology (thank tiktok and other apps for that) so coding is the worst they could imagine.

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#83

Post by brightsize »

solarmist wrote: post #72
Loughla wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>places your mortgage can be $2000 a month. This is shockingly major metro-area-centric. I want you to know that, and I feel like people on this board really need to understand how HIGH urban and suburban costs are. In many areas of the country, $2000/month is a seriously frighteningly massive home. For reference - in the middle of rural flyover, our 4 bedroom, 2.5 bathroom, 1800 square foot, full basement, 2 car gar…

I don’t think that’s still true. In Spokane, WA 10-15 years ago you could get starter homes for under $100k. Now that price is at least $300k (after cooling off for the last 12 months). If interest rates hadn’t risen it might be somewhere in between though.

My 1911, 3br/1ba in-city Spokane house cost me about $90K in 2003, currently appraised+taxed at around $300K as you say. I've no idea how ordinary people [that is, those w/o high incomes and/or high levels of wealth], and especially renters, are getting by. From what I read in it the local forums and see at the food bank every week, a lot aren't getting by.

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#84

Post by type0 »

jacquesm wrote: post #55
Loughla wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trades are an okay idea. People have this rosy picture of a skilled trades job, with high pay, great benefits, and security from a strong union. And while that can be true, it is certainly only a very small part of the picture. You can't just say, I'm going to be a plumber, and bam, you're a plumber. You could, conceivably do that with something like rough frame carpentry, but those aren't the high paid trades people…

Ask a plumber to show you their crawlsuit and describe the last month or so of their work and you being to appreciate their rates.

Plumbers have a terrible fate, more so if they have a special suit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teufz17PqoY

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#85

Post by majikaja »

pwinnski wrote: post #50
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who is basically an extremely "toxic capitalist" (to put it simply). He "called" that it wouldn't last that a lot of people were making "big" tech money + not really working 8 hours a day. Maybe that's what this whole "big tech layoff" is. A reset to lower overheated wages. Make 500,000 unemployed programmers compete for paycuts.

Your friend has bought into the hype, as a lot of people have. There are very few people making "big tech money" who are not also putting in very long hours. They exist, but are often/usually in the (long) process of being "managed out." There's no doubt in my mind that a lot of this is a power-play by profitable companies to push back against developers who've collectively gained more power at the negotiating table.…

When companies trying to make cost cuts see an employee making $500k I don't think they go 'oh that's okay because they're working long hours'.

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#86

Post by jacquesm »

type0 wrote: post #84
jacquesm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask a plumber to show you their crawlsuit and describe the last month or so of their work and you being to appreciate their rates.

Plumbers have a terrible fate, more so if they have a special suit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teufz17PqoY

Hehe, ok. Fantastic movie that one. Also quite depressing.

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#87

Post by logicalmonster »

solarmist wrote: post #71
giraffe_lady wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think its the case that a really simple human can learn to code. People always think this about their own trade. But let me assure you that I am dumb as shit and a pretty decent programmer as well. I've taught programming to beginner adults, who were coming out of prison or the military, and out of hundreds I ran across maybe a handful that truly truly were not ever going to be able to learn it to competenc…

Yup. This. Programming is not special knowledge or technique wise. It’s having a super high tolerance to frustration and somewhat lesser to being comfortable not knowing a solution.

You're right that having the capacity to program isn't about having special knowledge, but it's not about tolerance to frustration. It's about the ability to think in abstract terms and being able to mentally process an abstract mental model consistently.

Even a person with far below average intelligence can do many things in physical space with enough training. They can be shown how to set a table for a fancy banquet, can physically understand what a knife/fork/spoon/plate/napkin/cup are, their relationship in physical space, and eventually learn to set a table as instructed with enough training and practice.

But there's no amount of training that works to help a dumb person understand abstract problems in programming. Things like understanding a variable represents something, you have many variables to keep track of that all represent different things, and working through the logic of even a simple function in a program that changes those variables are beyond dumb people. I wish this wasn't the case, but it's reality.

giraffe_lady is being too humble if she's a decent coder and genuinely thinks she's dumb. There is no such thing as a dumb coder: it's a complete contradiction. In reality, I'd bet that almost everybody on HN who seriously uses this site to discuss ideas is at least in the top 15% of IQ for their population group.

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#88

Post by bunbunbun »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #77
bunbunbun wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, a fad?

I would say fad is probably a poor choice of words given the perspective "if one CEO thought it was appropriate (they let headcount + salaries creep up too high" and deemed it was in the realm of "action needed to correct", it probably wasn't baseless. Have you taken a look at the year over year headcount growth of some of these companies? If anything, you could make the argument that 7% isn't enough :/

I’m not really in the business of sympathizing with CEOs for poor past decisions

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#89

Post by solarmist »

logicalmonster wrote: post #87
solarmist wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. This. Programming is not special knowledge or technique wise. It’s having a super high tolerance to frustration and somewhat lesser to being comfortable not knowing a solution.

You're right that having the capacity to program isn't about having special knowledge, but it's not about tolerance to frustration. It's about the ability to think in abstract terms and being able to mentally process an abstract mental model consistently. Even a person with far below average intelligence can do many things in physical space with enough training. They can be shown how to set a table for a fancy banque…

The frustration part is about how different (than a person) computers make you think and how unforgiving computers are to even the smallest errors.

Re: Ask HN: Is “learn to code” now “learn to drive a big rig”?

#90

Post by hd95489 »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #30
dghlsakjg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk to a tradie who was around in 2008. Ask an older tradie how their body is doing. Ask a tradie how often clients don't pay their bills. Ask a tradie how many paid sick days they get. The trades are one way to make a living wage, but they definitely aren't an easy way to do it. There are some union jobs, but largely the trades require you to run your own business in one way or another. Even your average car mechan…

"Just be an electrician! Look how well they're paid!" Sure, be an electrician. But first try working an 8-hour day with your arms above shoulder level half the time.

Yeah it’s not the 8 hour days that you are thinking of. Blue collar workers work terrible hours and have mostly been robbed of holidays and weekends
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