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Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

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Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#21

Post by ajross »

BoorishBears wrote: post #6
anonporridge wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was the one where the media reported that because nobody was found in the front seat it must have been the fault of the self-driving feature. And the fact that this was media disinformation won't matter much, because the damage to the Tesla brand and the idea of self driving cars in the public's collective consciousness has already been done, and won't easily be undone by these newly revealed facts. "A lie mak…

Tesla is damaging the idea of self-driving cars in spite of the media, not because of it. Self driving cars were billed as the cool new thing. Then Tesla started charging people for "Full Self Driving" with a system that regresses from basic LKA that was shipping in the mid 2000s in terms of safety by using public roads for beta testing an intentionally hamstrung* L2-billed-as-L5 driving stack. It's frustrating to wa…

> a system that regresses from basic LKA that was shipping in the mid 2000s in terms of safety

Cite? Everyone likes to throw around the word "safety" as a qualitative thing, but the only data we have points to the system being extremely safe.

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#22

Post by mjfl »

The whole idea of being drunk and getting in a car with the intention of driving as fast as possible seems so stupid that I've never in my life even had the smidgen of a thought to do it, even if especially drunk. People really do have different brains.

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#23

Post by ajross »

sowbug wrote: post #2

This was the one where the media reported that because nobody was found in the front seat it must have been the fault of the self-driving feature. The NTSB found that none of the driver-assistance features were activated, and the driver was probably tossed into the backseat from the impact: Although the driver’s seat was found vacant and the driver was found in the left rear seat, the available evidence suggests that…

Worth pointing out that the most recent Tesla crash freakout was similarly thinly sourced. We have one line in a police report saying AP was in use, and no statements from the driver nor telemetry from the vehicle. And that was enough to drive thousand-comment threads right here on HN.

(And yeah, I'm on record saying that it's extremely unlikely autopilot commanded the lane change in that Bay Bridge accident. It just doesn't work like that, the blinkers came on simultaneous with the motion. That's a human driver for sure.)

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#24

Post by kdamica »

Almost 43,000 people died in car-related deaths in the US in 2021 (and millions more worldwide). I hope we can stop focusing on the small number of deaths from this one car company that has self-driving features.

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#25

Post by BoorishBears »

ajross wrote: post #21
BoorishBears wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is damaging the idea of self-driving cars in spite of the media, not because of it. Self driving cars were billed as the cool new thing. Then Tesla started charging people for "Full Self Driving" with a system that regresses from basic LKA that was shipping in the mid 2000s in terms of safety by using public roads for beta testing an intentionally hamstrung* L2-billed-as-L5 driving stack. It's frustrating to wa…

> a system that regresses from basic LKA that was shipping in the mid 2000s in terms of safety Cite? Everyone likes to throw around the word "safety" as a qualitative thing, but the only data we have points to the system being extremely safe.

Mid 2000s LKA was passive systems in the US market: they were backups that vibrated the seat or steering wheel, or provided mild outputs. That meant they couldn't actively put the driver into danger, making them inherently safer than a system that will gladly drive onto a sidewalk

Now what about active systems from back then? Almost 20 years ago Lexus had learned the lessons that Tesla kicked and resisted until about 2 years ago on. You need to watch the driver to ensure they're full attentive: https://lexusenthusiast.com/2007/09/08/a-look-at-the-lexus-l...

In markets with LKA, that same module was used to ensure that drivers were actively watching the road while it was activated.

In other words a 2007 Lexus did a better job on the one thing that Tesla is still getting dinged on (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-driver-moni...)

Tesla blamed a man for playing Candy Crush when his Tesla drove into a barrier and killed him. Lexus had solved the problem that killed this man over a decade prior.

A 2007 Lexus would have used its Driver Awareness Module to recognize the man was not paying attention and stopped lane centering. The solution was not complex, not expensive, iirc Tesla even had interior facing cameras by then but was still resisting turning them on until much more recently.

Tesla put their not-marketing ahead of human life, because if they had enabled more aggressive awareness monitoring than capacitance sensing or silly steering wheel jiggles, Elon wouldn't get to tweet about how "you're just there for regulatory reasons"

-

Also slightly off topic, but I think my biggest internet pet peeve is when people ask for a citation on a complex problem that requires critical thinking. I can't chew and pour the conclusion for you, but you're free to research before making low effort commentary like "Cite"

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#26

Post by bjelkeman-again »

a4isms wrote: post #14
kmeisthax wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I would have thought that Tesla's stance on repairability alone would have made their brand radioactive to the average Hacker News commenter, way before the Pedo Guy accusations or Elon Musk burning a bunch of money to make Twitter worse. Tesla is everything we claim to hate about Apple.

If Apple owned Tesla, there wouldn't be enough room in this comment to list all the reasons HN would hate it: 1. What do you mean, the OS and all its software is proprietary? Why can't I sideload my own fart app? 2. Highest margins in the industry? No we won't praise their business genius, we'll complain that they're charging a Tesla Fanboi Tax. 3. Like you said, RIGHT TO REPAIR, this is John Deere stuff, only it's a…

From a business perspective, a demographic bigger than the HN readership.

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#27

Post by Smoosh »

anonporridge wrote: post #5
sowbug wrote: post #2

This was the one where the media reported that because nobody was found in the front seat it must have been the fault of the self-driving feature. The NTSB found that none of the driver-assistance features were activated, and the driver was probably tossed into the backseat from the impact: Although the driver’s seat was found vacant and the driver was found in the left rear seat, the available evidence suggests that…

> This was the one where the media reported that because nobody was found in the front seat it must have been the fault of the self-driving feature. And the fact that this was media disinformation won't matter much, because the damage to the Tesla brand and the idea of self driving cars in the public's collective consciousness has already been done, and won't easily be undone by these newly revealed facts. "A lie mak…

Conspiracy theory: Autonomous driving is being undermined by traditional car companies who see that if it is successful, it would hugely change personal transportation and greatly reduce total sales of vehicles.

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#28

Post by gamblor956 »

ajross wrote: post #23
sowbug wrote: post #2

This was the one where the media reported that because nobody was found in the front seat it must have been the fault of the self-driving feature. The NTSB found that none of the driver-assistance features were activated, and the driver was probably tossed into the backseat from the impact: Although the driver’s seat was found vacant and the driver was found in the left rear seat, the available evidence suggests that…

Worth pointing out that the most recent Tesla crash freakout was similarly thinly sourced. We have one line in a police report saying AP was in use, and no statements from the driver nor telemetry from the vehicle. And that was enough to drive thousand-comment threads right here on HN. (And yeah, I'm on record saying that it's extremely unlikely autopilot commanded the lane change in that Bay Bridge accident. It just…

The NHTSA is on record as saying FSD was "definitely" engaged during the recent Bay Bridge accident in the tunnel.

And notably, Musk did not chime in to blame the driver like he always does when the driver is at fault, which is very strong circumstantial evidence that FSD was engaged.

Re: Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and “Alcohol Intoxication”

#30

Post by P_I_Staker »

cs702 wrote: post #9

"Excessive speed" and "alcohol intoxication" -- two common causes of human driver failure. Other causes of human driver failure include driving while tired or exhausted, falling asleep at the wheel, driving while angry or upset, getting bored while driving, using the car's infotainment system while driving, using a mobile phone while driving, getting distracted by passengers, smoking pot while driving, being a reckle…

However they are proving very bad at making complex decisions, especially ones that involve people and nature.

A lot of our driving in unusual conditions require our experience and reasoning about the world.

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