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Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

research.swtch.com

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Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#281

Post by Faark »

ergonaught wrote: post #246
cube2222 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're framing this as though the "ethical" choice were obvious, or that there was a person who "knew this was the ethical thing to do, but turned a blind eye". I disagree, I think it's a very contested topic, with lots of discussion whenever it's raised here, with either side possibly being a vocal minority.

The ethical choice is obvious. The distinction is between "What I do with my computer is none of your business unless I choose to make it your business" versus "What I do with my computer is your business unless I choose to not make it your business". It's insane that we are still having to justify privacy as a default, or that people continue to rationalize away the concerns. Yeah, maybe if it's opt-in they won't ha…

Any program is opt-in, so you just don't have to use it. Mayor bummer. Assuming data collection is properly disclosed, ofc, but i don't see anyone here arguing against that.

The "there shouldn't be any" argument just seems so entitled with there being such demand / reasons to do so. I applaud everyone trying to find ways to satisfy both sides, as done by the original article.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#282

Post by gavinhoward »

rogpeppe1 wrote: post #273
gavinhoward wrote: post #128

@rsc, if you ever see this, your proposal here means that I will never use any software written in Go ever again, if at all possible. What others have said in this thread about telemetry becoming an "accelerant" will happen. Abuse will happen. Data will be put up for sale. IP's will be logged because users can't verify that they're not. The only thing users can verify is what is sent and to whom. And only if they run…

> @rsc, if you ever see this, your proposal here means that I will never use any software written in Go ever again, if at all possible. Have you actually read the articles? The "data put up for sale" is to be made available publicly. IP logging can already be done (the Go proxy is enabled by default). All the source code is open. What's your actual problem with this, beyond a knee-jerk reaction to the idea?

> The "data put up for sale" is to be made available publicly.

How can users verify this?

> IP logging can already be done (the Go proxy is enabled by default).

Sure, but more data will be attached to it. Also, in his proposal, he said that IP addresses will not be logged. I seriously doubt that.

> What's your actual problem with this, beyond a knee-jerk reaction to the idea?

Putting telemetry in a programming language. Working with a programming language is the number one thing I do on a computer. This means that, except for the fact that I don't work in Go, most of my private conversation with a machine could be backdoored.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#283

Post by account42 »

Sometimes the post sorting algorithm produces interesting results

  53. Transparent telemetry for open-source projects (swtch.com)
      224 points by trulyrandom 1 day ago | flag | hide | 265 comments
  54. Windows 11: a spyware machine out of users' control (techspot.com)
      419 points by jlpcsl 19 hours ago | flag | hide | 292 comments

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#285

Post by account42 »

cube2222 wrote: post #69

Probably related to[0]. To anybody complaining that this should be opt-in: opt-in telemetry doesn't work. The reason for this is that most people don't care, but they don't care either way. They don't disable it when prompted, nor would they enable it manually. The idea of telemetry is being able to prioritize the work that will be most widely useful. For this you need a good and balanced sample of your users. You do…

To anybody complaining that this should be opt-in: opt-in petty doesn't work. The reason for this is that most people don't care, but they don't care either way. They don't allow it when prompted, nor would they report it when not prompted.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#286

Post by account42 »

lokar wrote: post #214
wrldos wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how they presented their argument. It can be presented both ways depending on how you want to promote it.

Not responding is not the same as responding no

It is when it comes to giving informed consent.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#287

Post by account42 »

charcircuit wrote: post #235
mh7 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any evidence that telemetry actually works? (i.e makes the program better)

Yes, the simplest example is crashes being reported. Developers can see that a specific crash is being hit by 1% of their userbase and then check the logs to see what went wrong and where the cash happened. The fix is made the program is indeed better.

You can let users report crashes. You can even prepare the data for them. You can even provide a wizard that automatically opens on crashes to help upload that data. But you need to obtain informed consent. Sending data behind the user's back without ASKING FIRST is not ok. Stop doing it.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#288

Post by JohnFen »

BonoboIO wrote: post #212
JohnFen wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really all boils down to meaningful consent. > if you spy on your Users In my opinion, any data collection about me or my machines that occurs without my active informed consent is "spying". This is my fundamental problem with opt-out mechanisms. They do not indicate or imply that active consent was obtained.

A Flash screen at installtime that logging is on an you can disable it in the settings. Would that be enough for you?

It would be better than nothing, but not really adequate. There are numerous circumstances where such a screen is impossible or impractical, and if every program did this, it would be as good as not doing it because people will react to it like they react to other common warning dialogs -- not really seeing it at all.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#289

Post by yencabulator »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #248
yencabulator wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making telemetry mandatory with an open license If it's mandatory to run the code that does telemetrics, it's not a very open license.

Just because Linux is open source doesn't mean you can't have both Fedora and Red Hat (an enterprise version built on the same codebase) I don't think any closed source goes into Red Hat, it's just the patch delivery pipelines, package repositories, etc that require a license. And support of course. Same with any distributed system whose core contributors could gain insight from telemetry. All the components are open…

You can make submitting telemetrics a condition of some other agreement, such as copyright license on the Red Hat name, or a B2B support contract. That, however, is pretty far removed from what's discussed here; if the software license itself makes telemetrics "mandatory", then it's no longer an open license.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#290

Post by account42 »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #248
yencabulator wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making telemetry mandatory with an open license If it's mandatory to run the code that does telemetrics, it's not a very open license.

Just because Linux is open source doesn't mean you can't have both Fedora and Red Hat (an enterprise version built on the same codebase) I don't think any closed source goes into Red Hat, it's just the patch delivery pipelines, package repositories, etc that require a license. And support of course. Same with any distributed system whose core contributors could gain insight from telemetry. All the components are open…

To be more explicit: If your license does not let users patch out your telemetry code it is not an open source license at all.
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