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The Future of Thunderbird

blog.thunderbird.net

11–20 of 473 posts

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#11
Apple Mail on OSX 10.4 (originally NeXT) working well today fyi

the industrial strength, bullet proof, complex but profoundly reliable engineering within Apple Mail shows itself to have stability over decades.

Why is this Thunderbird rewrite going to succeed ? A glossy sales pitch makes it less convincing, not more. This is a years' long project with no guranteed outcomes.. in fact, I would suspect that noveau security trappings and trend-based GUI embellishments would almost guarantee a "mayfly life" at great expense, contrasted to the Oak trees of original Internet standards.

cynical? perhaps.. prove it wrong

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#13

> “Why does Thunderbird look so old, and why does it take so long to change?” ~ A notable percentage of Thunderbird users Honestly this doesn't seem like the main issue with Thunderbird; the main issue is that the UI is very slow, it tends to use a lot of CPU and memory just sitting there and a lot of operations block the UI. This got a lot worse with 102. 102 unfortunately is so low in responsiveness that it's liter…

I remember the times when I was the only Thunderbird user in an Outlook infested company. I remember it was crazy fast, especially real-time search folders were a game changer for me, so I could filter messages however I liked and let them appear in multiple folders without affecting performance.

I haven't used it in a while, but if it's true, it's a pity that once so useful and fast piece of software deteriorate so hard. One would expect that a stale project can only benefit from the newer hardware to become crazy fast ...

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#14
post #7

No mention of JMAP support. https://jmap.io/

Is JMAP really enough of an improvement over the standards it is trying to replace to warrant throwing out old, working code built to the old standards? Apple Mail on my iPhone uses IMAP and seems plenty fast for me. Is it the best use of Thunderbird's limited resources to support a new standard, and adding correspondingly fewer other improvements in the meantime? I can understand why they might decide "no."

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#15
There's one area where I've always thought Thunderbird should be a cross platform leader and example to everyone: setting Email Client Standards.

I spent a lot of time in the anti-phishing/anti-fraud world. During a stint at dmarcian I wrote up an entire proposal that I titled A.P.E.C.S. - Anti-Phishing Email Client Standards. I should probably publish this document at some point since it looks like they've since taken it down and IMO, it still needs to happen.

When you dive hard into the email security problem you quickly discover that there are layers to how end users are exploited.

- Sending Mail Servers

- Receiving Mail Servers

- Information presented to users in the mail client

- Links and attachments in the emails themselves

- The phishing sites they link to

Each layer of this process needs to be addressed. DMARC let's sending mail servers verify that they are actually allowed to send email on behalf of the domain. That alone is a huge scope of the problem and puts the domain owner in charge of preventing abuse from their own domain.

Receiving mail servers have a number of factors that they use to verify inbound emails and DMARC makes that process a lot easier, but you still have to have spam filters, virus scans, IP and sender reputation management, reverse DNS lookups. The tools supporting users here are always getting better but they won't ever be perfect.

The mail client itself is critical though. We know the filters aren't perfect and typically have to err on the side of deliverability, which means that users are going to see messages that the mail server thought were questionable. You're already seeing warning messages in Google for things like this, but the factors here can absolutely be standardized around a number of factors. Users don't respond to "you can trust this" indicators (studies show, don't have them handy) but they do respond to warnings as long as the warnings are very targeted and rare. If you get a warning about every message, it's going to get ignored.

Links and attachments are also in the mail client scope. Attachment scans and link reputation absolutely need to be a part of the scope of this problem. There's an opportunity for link trust to be standardized in the same way as dmarc. Does the URL match the DMARC sender? Cool, that's a really good sign. Is the URL going through a shortener or other tracking system? In that case, there's probably a lot more risk involved. In order to bypass filters, shorteners will link to something safe and then change the redirect target after successful delivery. Reputation scores need to be tracked on shorteners based on immutability of links and responsiveness to abuse take downs. If they don't, then those services should generate a giant warning in the email client and potentially even have the link disabled in the message.

Phishing sites themselves are all over the place and working with hosting abuse teams to take them down is a gargantuan task. Working with a shortener who's linking to it to take it down would prevent every recipient of the message from being duped.

That's the high level. The standards are needed and should be applied across every email client vendor, from Thunderbird to Gmail to Outlook/365 to Fastmail to Apple. IMO Thunderbird has an opportunity to lead the charge here and become a force that protects people from phishing at the point of consumption, regardless of the rules on the mail server itself.

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#16
post #6

> “Why does Thunderbird look so old, and why does it take so long to change?” ~ A notable percentage of Thunderbird users Honestly this doesn't seem like the main issue with Thunderbird; the main issue is that the UI is very slow, it tends to use a lot of CPU and memory just sitting there and a lot of operations block the UI. This got a lot worse with 102. 102 unfortunately is so low in responsiveness that it's liter…

You drastically overestimate the general software consumer. Thunderbird is really only used by performance obsessed nerds, and that's largely in part because performance obsessed nerds all but prefer hideously outdated UI. But for any normies, they're gonna load it up and feel their skin crawl, along with the overwhelming sense someone might turn the corner to their cubicle and begin shouting "NERD!"

In one of the previous threads someone suggested betterbird and I've been using it ever since[1].

It doesn't fix the age old default search output, but it works comparably well for my taste. It also doesn't fix the idle CPU usage unfortunately.

[1] https://www.betterbird.eu/#featuretable

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#17

Apple Mail on OSX 10.4 (originally NeXT) working well today fyi the industrial strength, bullet proof, complex but profoundly reliable engineering within Apple Mail shows itself to have stability over decades. Why is this Thunderbird rewrite going to succeed ? A glossy sales pitch makes it less convincing, not more. This is a years' long project with no guranteed outcomes.. in fact, I would suspect that noveau securi…

Meanwhile the current Apple Mail app can be very slow & crash prone in my experience.

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#18
post #4

> Thunderbird is literally a bunch of code running on top of Firefox. All the tabs and sections you see in our applications are just browser tabs with a custom user interface. There's no such thing as applications. There's just us, and browsers. That's it!

I'll take this over an Electron app any day :) love FF

I thought that Thunderbird was a native application for quite a long time. For some reason it never had the same icky feeling I get from any Electron application (even supposedly "high quality" ones) and worked fast on crappy machines (which is what I've typically used throughout the life). Of course, performance went a bit downhill since they abandoned XUL in favor of pure HTML, but still.

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#19

Apple Mail on OSX 10.4 (originally NeXT) working well today fyi the industrial strength, bullet proof, complex but profoundly reliable engineering within Apple Mail shows itself to have stability over decades. Why is this Thunderbird rewrite going to succeed ? A glossy sales pitch makes it less convincing, not more. This is a years' long project with no guranteed outcomes.. in fact, I would suspect that noveau securi…

I think Apple Mail was unusable around that time for me. I think it mangled attachments to/from Windows, font sizing was off (i forget if it was previews or when writing). Search didn't work.

Re: The Future of Thunderbird

#20

> “Why does Thunderbird look so old, and why does it take so long to change?” ~ A notable percentage of Thunderbird users Honestly this doesn't seem like the main issue with Thunderbird; the main issue is that the UI is very slow, it tends to use a lot of CPU and memory just sitting there and a lot of operations block the UI. This got a lot worse with 102. 102 unfortunately is so low in responsiveness that it's liter…

The main issue with Thunderbird IMO is that line-wrapping and quoting (and especially their interaction) during composition is horrifically buggy!
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