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Why is remote work seen as a gift?

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Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#361

Post by atomicnumber3 »

fleddr wrote: post #339

The "return to the office" move is largely management/extrovert bias. Managers collaborate all day long, it's what they do, whilst "workers" tend to be overwhelmed by the many meetings. Further, extroverts get energy out of being around people. Another factor is that some (many) managers frankly have no idea what their employees do. Physical presence management is the coping strategy. That being said, I do agree that…

> "It doesn’t matter where you work, as long as you get the work done."

I think what I'm seeing is that this isn't quite true. It's not where you work, but it is when.

I worked in-office for the first part of my career, then in 2020 went remote (coincidentally, right before the pandemic started). My 2c:

- overall, no major differences.

- casual chatter / schmoozing is easier. I can DM people async instead of popping over to their office or meeting randomly at the watercooler.

- Meetings are ~same effectiveness. Main note is that zoom makes it easier for less traditionally social aggressive people to get a word in - between the chat function, raising hand function (which is a lot less weird than doing the same physically), zoom eliminating height differences and evening out voice volumes (imo big effect here for women especially, it levels out soft-spoken people with the big booming aggro types).

- Coding is the same. I've always had a private office (except for a brief transitional stint in an open plan which I hated) so it's not like people were tapping my shoulder anyway.

People seem to mostly handwave towards some mystical "innovation" rate that arises from people being crammed together. I don't buy it.

The big thing that does hurt is when getting some sync communication time is hard. I've had no problem working with people with ~3 hours of timezone difference and 5 hours of overlap. It gets fucky when that overlap becomes 1 to 0 hours (so e.g. working from pacific US coast and trying to talk to Ireland/UK/etc).

On-site and remote are not so different, I think, once you stop writing critical business stuff on physical paper and whiteboards. Sync-possible vs Sync-difficult is where the big difference is and you need a fundamentally different social and organizational structure to how you work.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#362

Post by ghaff »

scotty79 wrote: post #342
sokoloff wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which government(s)? Taxes and social charges can vary by city, county, state, and country. If I'm going to hire scotty79 with no knowledge of where in the world they live, which governments would I coordinate with and how would I know that? Employment rules, customs, and laws vary by at least state and country (and minimum wages vary by city). How would I know what laws applied to the employment relationship?

Federal obviously. Somebody has to know what's up with all this mess. If I'm from another country government should know that and tax accordingly. I have no idea how placing burden of knowing all this on every single employer helps anybody (except IRS).

In fact, it's much more at the state level. I owe the IRS the same no matter where I live in the US (leaving aside deductions for state and local taxes). But I need state residency for my driver's license and state taxes. The IRS doesn't care if I live in Nevada or California. But California certainly cares if I claim to live in Nevada and actually live in California for 8 months out of the year.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#363

Post by beauzero »

fleddr wrote: post #339

The "return to the office" move is largely management/extrovert bias. Managers collaborate all day long, it's what they do, whilst "workers" tend to be overwhelmed by the many meetings. Further, extroverts get energy out of being around people. Another factor is that some (many) managers frankly have no idea what their employees do. Physical presence management is the coping strategy. That being said, I do agree that…

If large corporations or governments were actually trying to reduce hydrocarbon dependence they would bend over backward to promote work from home.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#364

Post by kuschku »

baxtr wrote: post #347
pmoriarty wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get my sense of belonging with my friends and family. I don't feel a need to bond with the other office drones.

This sounds like you're ok to spend 8h of your waking time with people you don't really care about. I prefer to spend my working time AND leisure time with people I care about.

Of course I'd prefer spending time with people I like. But most employers don't offer that.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#365

Post by dboreham »

MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> game as it fits their needs

Why is this surprising? People like to pay less for things.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#366

Post by nprateem »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #336
lbriner wrote: post #163

I wish people would stop posting articles that imply that remote working is somehow objectively better when it has already been made more than clear that it doesn't work well for everyone. I really miss the contact from the office but since most people don't go in any more, it is not worth much of my time to travel there. Yes, we employ some people fully remotely, which is fine because that's what we knew at the time…

Giving people the option to work remotely is objectively better, because it satisfies both parties.

Well it's not because there's no point going to the office if your team still WFHs

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#367

Post by dboreham »

brookst wrote: post #298
MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

The cost of living thing is a mess. I think it will get sorted out as it becomes clear remote workers can and do still get offers. The current thinking seems to be “if you live in a low cost area, that means there is no competition for you”. Which used to be true, and is not true. And there are tons of just dumb things in remote work policy today. My company does cost of living adjustment based on the state you’re in…

CoL based on state is obvious idiocy. Source: family member is a compensation analyst.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#368

Post by ghaff »

scotty79 wrote: post #285
paulcole wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just wouldn’t work in the US. The regulations vary greatly from state to state and even city to city. Choosing to employ a person in a state for the first time can be a very costly decision (in both time and $$$) for a small business. The second, third, fourth, etc. employees are marginally less expensive but “breaking the seal” and hiring that first employee in a new state isn’t something that every business ta…

The question is, should it be like that? Shouldn't government handle the legal differences between states so that employers don't have to deal with that?

No. Because the system of government in the US is such that states have the responsibility for lots of things rather than the federal government. However, that has the side effect of making the state you live in actually matter. I can't (or am at least not supposed to) just establish an address of convenience somewhere that has the lowest taxes.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#369

Post by DrThunder »

lbriner wrote: post #163

I wish people would stop posting articles that imply that remote working is somehow objectively better when it has already been made more than clear that it doesn't work well for everyone. I really miss the contact from the office but since most people don't go in any more, it is not worth much of my time to travel there. Yes, we employ some people fully remotely, which is fine because that's what we knew at the time…

Yes, I was pretty on the side of the remote work until the pandemic. I don't think it's mentally healthy for most people. Long commutes aren't mentally healthy either though, so I understand people that want to leave that behind. I've got a less than 10 minute commute and I can easily bike that if I need to.

Society is already too segregated with technology and I really do not think it's a good idea to move all of our in person communication to zoom calls. I really believe a lot of our current issues are due to the face people aren't communicating face to face enough and they've don't think of people on the other side of their screen as real people.

I think a hybrid work setting could be great in the right circumstances, but 100% wfh just isn't a great idea imo. If you are 100% wfh you need to force yourself to find some other social group.

Additionally, I'll add we have whole generation of kids being brought up on primarily electronic communication. They're not getting appropriate social skills to begin with and then we're talking about throwing them into a remote work world for their entire lives. I think this is just a recipe for increasing their already poor mental health.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#370

Post by 6Eye6Ear6Nose »

beauzero wrote: post #363
fleddr wrote: post #339

The "return to the office" move is largely management/extrovert bias. Managers collaborate all day long, it's what they do, whilst "workers" tend to be overwhelmed by the many meetings. Further, extroverts get energy out of being around people. Another factor is that some (many) managers frankly have no idea what their employees do. Physical presence management is the coping strategy. That being said, I do agree that…

If large corporations or governments were actually trying to reduce hydrocarbon dependence they would bend over backward to promote work from home.

They will eventually but they still have a lot of legwork to do before their 15 minute city plan (needed for long term climate lockdowns) can be implemented.
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