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Why is remote work seen as a gift?

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Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#41

Post by luckylion »

jahnu wrote: post #38
MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area Imagine haggling with a supplier like this. Crazy we put up with it.

That's pretty normal, isn't it? Many services do location-based pricing, a friend of mine just sets his location to Turkey to get rebates from Adobe, Microsoft etc.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#42

Post by MaximumYComb »

MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

My company allows fully flexible work, but due to the nature of our work we tend to hire locally. A recruiter made a mistake and arranged an interview for me in the wrong city, and I was hired as the only fully remote employee for a local team.

Does it have challenges? Yes. Am I a valued employee? Yes, I am potentially one of the most valuable employees after my first year in my team. Easily top 20%.

I visit my team every few months for a week. Mostly the point is so we can go out for dinner and I get to have some drinks with them. The workday itself is changed very little by being in person.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#43

Post by ornornor »

squokko wrote: post #32
epgui wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite position could just as well be said to rest on the opposite assumption.

The burden of proof is much higher on remote work. The entire history of civilization from hunter-gatherers to 2019 was built largely with in-person work. If companies are going to make a permanent change to the way work is done, they will need affirmative proof that the new way works better than the old way, otherwise the much more tried-and-true old way is a much safer bet.

This is empirical, but I have yet to hear the cause for failure of a company to be “we worked remotely”. Otoh, hearing that operating expenses were too high, no product market fit, tech debt, etc are the usual culprits across remote and in office companies.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#44

Post by snemvalts »

squokko wrote: post #32
epgui wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite position could just as well be said to rest on the opposite assumption.

The burden of proof is much higher on remote work. The entire history of civilization from hunter-gatherers to 2019 was built largely with in-person work. If companies are going to make a permanent change to the way work is done, they will need affirmative proof that the new way works better than the old way, otherwise the much more tried-and-true old way is a much safer bet.

It's a fallacy to not having any data to back up the incumbent method. "People have drunk alcohol since prehistoric times, so why should people stop now and be sober?". Both sides need to have ample proof.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#45

Post by phoronixrly »

midasuni wrote: post #22
zpeti wrote: post #15

It’s a gift if you don’t have small children. It’s ridiculously harder if you do. It’s like trying to work in an emergency room, where every minute there’s some emergency, and you’re trying to do something different. Of course most people working in tech aren’t facing this issue and so think working from home is great for everyone.

I have worked from home from before my kids were born. They’re now 8 and 10. I don’t recognise what you are saying, probably because when I’m at work I’m uncontactable. More recently it seems people think working at home means you get to do things like washing, cleaning, babysitting etc as well. That’s not a work from home issue, it’s an attitude problem.

> That’s not a work from home issue, it’s an attitude problem

How did we get to a point where we consider this opinion to be normal? It is expected someone else to care for your children while you commute hours each day and work 8+ hours at an office? When you get home you still need to spend whatever free minutes you have with your children, cook, put them to bed, wash, clean, find some time to share with your spouse, then repeat daily?

How about we normalize working from home, and spending time with your children and spouse? Is it so bad to have your child do their homework on the desk next to you so you can explain and answer their questions? Play around in the room while you work, so you can actually interact with them, instead of being away for the major part of their conscious life?

Also, is it so bad to go load and start the washing machine while you wait for your build to finish? Maybe load the dishwasher? What do you do at the office at the same time? Go to the kitchen to prepare yourself an unhealthy amount of coffee so you can grind your busywork with more focus?

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#46

Post by optional_value »

chii wrote: post #14
mmaunder wrote: post #12

Because most people don’t like to be told to be in a certain place for a certain amount of time from where they can not leave. There’s another name for this situation.

> where they can not leave. unlike a prison, you're free to leave the job.

you are free to choose your prison, yes

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#47

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

> But crucially, how much time I spend in the office is my choice.

this is it really, wish we can move past this adversarial phase of remote vs office and just let people choose what works for them, as individuals and where reasonably accomodative as teams.

nothing can suck the life out of a team or individual like multi level mgmt bureaucracy involving themselves in every little decision.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#48

Post by glenjamin »

papito wrote: post #39
epgui wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite position could just as well be said to rest on the opposite assumption.

From personal experience, I am MUCH happier getting out of the house a couple of times a week. Lockdowns felt like house arrest, and commuting 5 days a week felt completely unnecessary and exhausting. For many people I know this is the case, so I don't think pure remote or location work are "it".

Remote work doesn't force you to stay in your house all week.

I work 100% remote with semi-flexible hours and a big part of this is the freedom to leave my house and do things during the day, like meet up with friends, or go exercise while the sun is out in winter etc.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#49

Post by toyg »

MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> It should be about the value I bring to the company, not where I live.

That's like saying the price of goods and services should be about the cost of producing them. No no no: the price is about what buyers will bear. In the same way, salaries are about what the worker will bear.

If there is an arbitrage lever to maximize profit, any business will use it.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#50

Post by brmgb »

MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued, that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that can truthfully deduct the cost-for-living from the compensation they are offering. It should be about the value I bring to the company, not where I live.

It's mostly about what you can negotiate to be fair. Refusing to pay you more is their way of telling you they don't believe you can get something better than what they offer where you are which is legitimate. They will reassess if you show them a better offer from a competitor if they really want you. A big part of negotiation rests on your best alternative to what's being negotiated.

> It's different, and you need to adjust your processes

So you actually agree it's complicated from a company point of view.

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