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SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

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Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#71
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a way for the people to veto a law in a referendum, like in Switzerland. That way politicians would be more cautious passing laws which they know that the public probably won't like and probably will veto. The current US system only provides "checks and balances" between political parties, so when one party cracks up (meaning, gets bought by special interests and turns against the people) we only can…

> a general possibility to override unpopular laws. We have to be very careful with this. Sometimes a very popular law is exactly what you don't want. There are vast areas where a law mandating the teaching of creationist superstition in science classes would be immensely popular while a law forbidding it would be very unpopular.

> superstition popular while a law forbidding it would be very unpopular

Having a legal way for the population to defend themselves against bad (purchased) laws does not in any way imply that you would immediately turn into a theocracy. Switzerland has had them for hundreds of years and is still sane.

On the other hand, having a opaque 2-party dictatorship like the US has no does not somehow prevent religion to have a major influence on politics and laws. You have it on your money (in god we trust), you have it in your schools (one nation united under god), you have it in your courtrooms and presidential inaugurations (so help me god), etc.

Introducting a switzerland-like mechanism for more checks and balances wouldnt change much, it would just make it easier to prevent autocratic decisions like SOPA, Iraq war, etc.

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a way for the people to veto a law in a referendum, like in Switzerland. That way politicians would be more cautious passing laws which they know that the public probably won't like and probably will veto. The current US system only provides "checks and balances" between political parties, so when one party cracks up (meaning, gets bought by special interests and turns against the people) we only can…

That hasn't worked super well in California, from many accounts.

> That hasn't worked super well in California, from many accounts.

Most of those accounts assert that a significant fraction of CA's spending is mandated by referendum and that CA legislature shouldn't take referendums into account when it does a budget. (The latter is how you get to "referendums are responsible for CA's deficit.")

Both of those assertions are wrong, no matter how often they're stated.

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#74
post #33

Heh, first post here. Hi. Although I'm from the UK, I have been following this with keen interest,particularly as US authorities are able to pluck our citizens from our country on mere suspicion. Just to say, and Im sure you all know it already, you have not won, keep pushing and pushing until there is a law, but a fair just one. I don't want such laws, but there are inevitable. Just be sure they are laws that work f…

Welcome to HN!

The problem is that US legislation can be changed in lot of weird ways between the time its introduced and when it's passed. For example, there could be popular support for a "Protecting Net Freedoms" act and something good could be introduced. But the special interest lobbyists would likely get a large amount of edits in, and the "provisions" added for "protecting (children|national security|the environment)" and "creating jobs".

So at the end of the day, passing a "Protecting Net Freedoms" act would likely be worse than the status quo (which in the US is still quite good IMHO).

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#75

Now we need a way to get rid of Lamar Smith (R-TX). That SOB is just an idiot waiting to happen. Again.

Really the most powerful signal that could come out of this whole debacle is to see just one congressperson lose their seat unambiguously because of their support for net censorship.

I say, regardless of whether or not anything passes this year, we find one of the weaker sponsors of SOPA/PIPA who's up for re-election this year and make them pay.

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#76
post #4

Excerpts from Rupert Murdoch's reaction https://twitter.com/Rupertmurdoch "So Obama has thrown in his lot withSilicon Valley paymasters who threaten all software creators with piracy, plain thievery." "Piracy leader is Google who streams movies free, sells advts around them. No wonder pouring millions into lobbying." "Sure misunderstand many things, but not plain stealing. Incidentally google blocks many other undesi…

"Piracy leader is Google who streams movies free, sells advts around them. No wonder pouring millions into lobbying."

I thought the technology sector spend peanuts on lobbying compared to the entertainment industry?

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#77

I would urge extreme caution about reading too much into this article. I (I'm a political junkie) saw Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D) on TV yesterday. The message I got from his body language, nuance, and phrasing was something like "Obviously people who are elected from heavy technology areas are feeling a lot of heat. There's still a lot of support, though. Let's see if we can tweak this in such a way as to p…

This has been the standard practice for quite awhile. Special interests always have the incentive to get legislation that favors them, this was pointed out in Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson (1946):

Special interests, as the history of tariffs reminds us, can think of the most ingenious reasons why they should be the objects of special solicitude. Their spokesmen present a plan in their favor; and it seems at first so absurd that disinterested writers do not trouble to expose it. But the special interests keep on insisting on the scheme. Its enactment would make so much difference to their own immediate welfare that they can afford to hire trained economists and "public relations experts" to propagate it in their behalf. The public hears the argument so often repeated, and accompanied by such a wealth of imposing statistics, charts, curves and pie-slices, that it is soon taken in. When at last disinterested writers recognize that the danger of the scheme's enactment is real, they are usually too late. They cannot in a few weeks acquaint themselves with the subject as thoroughly as the hired brains who have been devoting their full time to it for years; they are accused of being uniformed ,and they have the air of men who presume to dispute axioms.

http://www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson/#0....

The whole book is available at the URL, it's quite a good read.

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is not simply "the rule of majority".

Democracy is exactly that. Which is why our Founders gave us a democratic republic instead.

Nope. It is not exactly „the rule of the majority“. It is the rule of the majority with respect to the interests of minority.

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#79
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In effect, doesn't the President already have line item veto? If there are items he doesn't agree with, he should signal that he will veto until they are removed.

That requires a lot from the President and oftentimes they'll be on the losing end of that political battle. On the recently-passed NDAA for example (which explicitly made it legal to detain people without trial, and hopefully will be struck down by the courts), it was passed as part of funding the military, sending out soldier paychecks, etc. Fox News is already (wrongly) accusing Obama of wanting to undermine our t…

Obama originally objected to the NDAA because it limited his powers too much, not because of the indefinite detention clause.

The Administration strongly objects to the military custody provision of section 1032, which would appear to mandate military custody for a certain class of terrorism suspects. This unnecessary, untested, and legally controversial restriction of the President's authority to defend the Nation from terrorist threats would tie the hands of our intelligence and law enforcement professionals. Moreover, applying this military custody requirement to individuals inside the United States, as some Members of Congress have suggested is their intention, would raise serious and unsettled legal questions and would be inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets. We have spent ten years since September 11, 2001, breaking down the walls between intelligence, military, and law enforcement professionals; Congress should not now rebuild those walls and unnecessarily make the job of preventing terrorist attacks more difficult. Specifically, the provision would limit the flexibility of our national security professionals to choose, based on the evidence and the facts and circumstances of each case, which tool for incapacitating dangerous terrorists best serves our national security interests. The waiver provision fails to address these concerns, particularly in time-sensitive operations in which law enforcement personnel have traditionally played the leading role. These problems are all the more acute because the section defines the category of individuals who would be subject to mandatory military custody by substituting new and untested legislative criteria for the criteria the Executive and Judicial branches are currently using for detention under the AUMF in both habeas litigation and military operations. Such confusion threatens our ability to act swiftly and decisively to capture, detain, and interrogate terrorism suspects, and could disrupt the collection of vital intelligence about threats to the American people.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/legislativ...

Re: SOPA 'shelved' until consensus is found

#80
post #11

Isn't this the point where 'the people' should not sit on their laurels, and launch a proposal to make a law that does exactly the opposite: protecting the digital rights of citizens? I am asking because (also in the EU) we are usually happy when some draconian law does not make it, but there's rarely an attempt to push for legislation that secures the rights of internet users.

What would your proposed law say? Congress can't make a law that says that it can't make a SOPA-like law in the future (or, at least, it would be meaningless, since future legislation could repeal it).

I've been wondering about this, but I don't have a good answer. What about (1) Laws that get money out of politics, like campaign finance and the work being done by organizations like United re:public and Rootstrikers (originally founded by Lawrence Lessig under the name Fix Congress First.) Make it harder to support SOPA-like laws in the future. or (2) Repeal the most recent copyright extension act.
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