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Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

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Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#251

Post by simoncion »

JetSpiegel wrote: post #226
Thaxll wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can set env variable for the go toolchain with a command such as: go env -w TELEMETRY=off which will be written to disk and use by the go cli.

What if a new version of go uses TELEMETRY_ENABLED? Do you read all the changelogs, always?

Yeah, given go's history with breaking changes (and the habit of OKR-chasing managers and Senior Staff to make Number Go Up to look good on the promo packet), I definitely would not trust any opt-out mechanism to not receive operationally-significant changes in the next five years.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#252

Post by chaps »

rsc wrote: post #150
mseepgood wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can set an environment variable at any point in time.

You can also echo GOTELEMETRY=off >> $(go env GOENV)

There are tons of cases where the person installing go won't know that telemetry is enabled otherwise. For example, let's say you're at a bootcamp and the go installation instructions from your teacher don't mention telemetry -- how would the person know to disable telemetry? My concerns are around nation state actors, domestic abuse, journalist privacy, lawyer confidentiality and fully believe that this sort of telemetry can and will be abused in someway somehow, eventually, and probably in some obscure fashion.

Would be nice if this system threw something to stderr at runtime every. single. time. unless the message was explicitly disabled. Something like:

  Go telemetrics are enabled! We are collecting {json:object} from your machine for X purposes. If you would like to opt out, run "echo GOTELEMETRY=off >> $(go env GOENV)". To disable this message, "echo GOTELEMETRYWARNING=off >> $(go env GOENV)"

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#253

Post by kasabali »

Thaxll wrote: post #242
wrldos wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incorrect assertion. We have to ask for permission on our SaaS products to collect this data as it's not necessary to collect it for the product to function. The EU GDPR mandates this. Russ Cox is suggesting that there is no permission step and that the data is collected by default. That is the issue.

GDPR only cover PI data so your comment is irrelevant. https://gdpr.eu/eu-gdpr-personal-data/

Everything is PI when you connect enough dots

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#254

Post by philosopher1234 »

stonogo wrote: post #239
philosopher1234 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cant solve this problem by carving out our eyes. We must adapt to having data about the world.

Nobody wants you to carve out your eyes. They want you to stop shoving eyes into everything you touch. Meanwhile, I'll decide what I must or must not adapt to, thank you.

Read more carefully

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#255

Post by js8 »

cube2222 wrote: post #69

Probably related to[0]. To anybody complaining that this should be opt-in: opt-in telemetry doesn't work. The reason for this is that most people don't care, but they don't care either way. They don't disable it when prompted, nor would they enable it manually. The idea of telemetry is being able to prioritize the work that will be most widely useful. For this you need a good and balanced sample of your users. You do…

> To anybody complaining that this should be opt-in: opt-in telemetry doesn't work. The reason for this is that most people don't care, but they don't care either way.

Why, in OSS, do you care about the users that do not care? If the users truly care they should buy support, or at least enable telemetry.

If someone complains about feature getting removed - tell them to enable telemetry next time. Maybe people who want so much privacy shouldn't be expecting free support for features they want.

Maybe you're worried about people like your grandma installing Linux. Then this should apply on the distribution level - there should be an opt-in setting for telemetry, that enables it in various programs being distributed (at the discretion of the package maintainers), so that user doesn't have to opt-in individually.

Being opt-in will also make it compliant with EU data privacy laws.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#257

Post by eps »

cube2222 wrote: post #69

Probably related to[0]. To anybody complaining that this should be opt-in: opt-in telemetry doesn't work. The reason for this is that most people don't care, but they don't care either way. They don't disable it when prompted, nor would they enable it manually. The idea of telemetry is being able to prioritize the work that will be most widely useful. For this you need a good and balanced sample of your users. You do…

> they don't care either way

This is not true. You know it and you are being coy about it.

If your "easy way to disable it" was a simple question next to that unexpected notification displayed once in response to a completely unrelated action - "Would you like to keep telemetry on?" - you bet you'd have massive opt out rates. Nobody wants telemetry.

What you have is a gray pattern. The same pattern that caused the EU to clarify its cookie law to require Yes and No choice to be equally accessible. And what you have is "Accept all" and "See details". Except that yours is worse by being a one-time notification.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#258

Post by eps »

ergonaught wrote: post #246
cube2222 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're framing this as though the "ethical" choice were obvious, or that there was a person who "knew this was the ethical thing to do, but turned a blind eye". I disagree, I think it's a very contested topic, with lots of discussion whenever it's raised here, with either side possibly being a vocal minority.

The ethical choice is obvious. The distinction is between "What I do with my computer is none of your business unless I choose to make it your business" versus "What I do with my computer is your business unless I choose to not make it your business". It's insane that we are still having to justify privacy as a default, or that people continue to rationalize away the concerns. Yeah, maybe if it's opt-in they won't ha…

> It's insane that we are still having to justify privacy as a default

Half of the HN is in love with Chrome and nearly all are on Gmail.

The relentless drive towards the erosion of privacy powered by free carrots worked.

There is now a whole generation of people that sees all this as a norm.

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#259

Post by stonogo »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #254
stonogo wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants you to carve out your eyes. They want you to stop shoving eyes into everything you touch. Meanwhile, I'll decide what I must or must not adapt to, thank you.

Read more carefully

Write more clearly

Re: Transparent telemetry for open-source projects

#260

Post by eps »

badrequest wrote: post #241
mort96 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spying on people without their consent is not ethical.

How would you use compiler telemetry to spy on people?

Working hours, work location, home location, favourite cafes, sick days, vacations, hotels, wealth level. And that's just from IP addresses and timestamps alone, and without cross-referencing with all the data that Google vacuums over other channels.
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