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“How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

seymourhersh.substack.com

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Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#571

Post by jccooper »

peanuty1 wrote: post #536
linkjuice4all wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why just those countries? Surely some countries in the middle east would be interested in opening and supplying petro products to a new market. What about China? Maybe they're interested in division and weakening their nearest neighbor so they could buy up all the gas? There are too many players with varying interests at different levels to just go off of someone's reputation and an unnamed source. Perhaps Biden or s…

Are any middle eastern militaries competent enough to blow up the Nord Strom pipeline and cover their tracks?

It's not very deep. You can buy a tethered underwater ROV rated for 300ft OTS for a few thousands of dollars. Not to mention a camera and an actuator on an anchor. Practically anybody could have done it. Even non-state actors. Hardest part would be getting the explosives in sufficient quantity.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#572

Post by stephc_int13 »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #508
Tepix wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an action would be an act of war and uncovering it - in the US - likely seen as unpatriotic or worse.

Any US journalistic outlet would KILL to be first to report on this. The US loves its military, but American news sources have no want to keep a secret like this on behalf of the government. The US media loves to report on US war crimes, and other stupid government shit It wouldn't surprise me to know that the US government had knowledge of this. It would surprise me if they were directly involved though.

Why would you be surprised?

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#573

Post by kraussvonespy »

tootie wrote: post #564
drewda wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seymour Hersh has decades of credibility from reporting the My Lai Massacre to the abuses at Abu Graib. But he does often rely on sources who remain anonymous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Use_of_anonymous... I did find it interesting in that Wikipedia article to read that The New Yorker's editor insists on knowing the identify of all of the anonymous sources that Hersh has used when his reporting is p…

It's unfortunate, but Sy Hersh has kinda flown the coop in the last 10 years. He egged on the Seth Rich conspiracy and tried to deny the US killed bin Laden. The New Yorker has basically disowned him and he hasn't had a byline in many years.

Too bad the New Yorker abandoned him. If your writing makes it past the editors, fact checkers and attorneys at that mag, you're probably golden. The effort they spent on Lawrence Wright's Scientology article was pretty hardcore: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/133561256

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#574

Post by GAN_Game »

tootie wrote: post #564
drewda wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seymour Hersh has decades of credibility from reporting the My Lai Massacre to the abuses at Abu Graib. But he does often rely on sources who remain anonymous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Use_of_anonymous... I did find it interesting in that Wikipedia article to read that The New Yorker's editor insists on knowing the identify of all of the anonymous sources that Hersh has used when his reporting is p…

It's unfortunate, but Sy Hersh has kinda flown the coop in the last 10 years. He egged on the Seth Rich conspiracy and tried to deny the US killed bin Laden. The New Yorker has basically disowned him and he hasn't had a byline in many years.

> tried to deny the US killed bin Laden

If he denied the US killed bin Laden he would be unreliable. He never denied the US killed bin Laden. You saying he said that is what is unreliable.

He said that some of the White House and Pentagon assertions about bin Laden, which the New York Times did not question in the days after (but did question, to some extent, later on) were not accurate. Particularly that no one high up in the Pakistani Army, government or intelligence knew Bin Laden was in Abbottabad. Hersh asserted that was incorrect, as were some other things.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#575

Post by Const-me »

ak_111 wrote: post #563

Not trying to be snarky, but genuinely what is the most articulate and sensible piece on why the most likely culprit is Russia? All the commentary I read from reputable media seem to boil down to "Putin did it because that is the sort of thing that Putin does", without providing any further analysis on why it would make strategic or tactical sense for Putin to do so. The more serious journals such as Foreign Policy s…

> what is the most articulate and sensible piece on why the most likely culprit is Russia?

I think this video is articulate and sensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk-0qJXyido

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#576

Post by xg15 »

0xDEF wrote: post #558
xg15 wrote: post #535

I find it extremely jarring how many reputable western media outlets immediately jumped to the conclusion that Russia did it even though that made zero sense - but absolutely refused to even consider the possibility that the US or another western state could have done it. But at this point, the article is basically "cool story, bro". The only independently verifyable bits are the public statements of Biden, Nuland, e…

>I find it extremely jarring how many reputable western media outlets immediately jumped to the conclusion that Russia did it Do you have proof to back up this claim? A more correct observation is that Western media didn't blame any single entity but has the attention span of a goldfish and forgot about this incident after a week or two.

I live in Germany and my proof is that a few days after the explosions, I could read/watch Spiegel, Tagesschau and other outlets quoting speculations about Russia as "expert opinions", while discussing speculations about the US only in context of "russian accusations".

A Spiegel article from september 28, two days after the incident: https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/nord-stream-spekulationen-ueb...

It links to a Times article allegedly saying the same (but behind a paywall unfortunately, so I can't check): https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russia-probably-bombed-no...

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#577

Post by tikwidd »

My thoughts on the incident, organised as a series of nested propositions.

0. The Nord Stream pipeline incident was not an accident.

1. The pipeline was sabotaged by a state actor.

   a. Only a state had the capability to carry it out undetected.

   b. The sabotage was in violation of international law.

   c. Evidence of the sabotage would cause a diplomatic scandal.

   d? Either Russia or the United States sabotaged the pipeline.

   e? The sabotage was authorised at the highest levels.
3. Russia did not sabotage the pipeline.

   a? Russia had no motivation to destroy it.

   b. Russia controls the pipeline, and could choose to turn it off.

   c. No state has presented evidence that Russia was involved in the sabotage.

   d. The area is highly monitored by US and US-aligned countries.
4. The US sabotaged the pipeline.

   a. The US had strategic and economic motivations to prevent the pipeline from operating.

   b. The US govt made public statements prior to the sabotage that, had they been made by the Kremlin, would have uncontroversially implicated Russia in the eyes of the American public.

   c. The US has the means to destroy it.

   d? The US has the means to hide their involvement in the sabotage from European allies and the US public. 

   e. The Western public have no appetite for stories which portray Russia as a victim, or US/EU as villains. Hiding their involvement is therefore trivial, since media outlets have no motivation to investigate the truth.

   f. Conversely, Russian state and media have no incentive to investigate, since the Russian audience takes it for granted that NATO was responsible.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#578

Post by fsckboy »

btown wrote: post #559
drewda wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seymour Hersh has decades of credibility from reporting the My Lai Massacre to the abuses at Abu Graib. But he does often rely on sources who remain anonymous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Use_of_anonymous... I did find it interesting in that Wikipedia article to read that The New Yorker's editor insists on knowing the identify of all of the anonymous sources that Hersh has used when his reporting is p…

https://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8584473/seymour-hersh-osama-bi... goes over how his more recent work verges on conspiracy theory. That even that inconsistent Bin Laden story purportedly relied on two distinct sources, and yet his Nord Stream story purportedly relies on only a single anonymous source, should be a significant red flag here. I have no reason to doubt that Hersh heard the quotes in his Nord Stream story fr…

> were not independently verified even, by his own admission, by Hersh. And that's just... not credible reporting

since by his own admission, [what you said], that is credible reporting.

it might not be a credible source or story

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#579

Post by nl »

peanuty1 wrote: post #536
linkjuice4all wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why just those countries? Surely some countries in the middle east would be interested in opening and supplying petro products to a new market. What about China? Maybe they're interested in division and weakening their nearest neighbor so they could buy up all the gas? There are too many players with varying interests at different levels to just go off of someone's reputation and an unnamed source. Perhaps Biden or s…

Are any middle eastern militaries competent enough to blow up the Nord Strom pipeline and cover their tracks?

Ever hear about Qatar screwing anything up? Me either.

They have successfully annoyed just about ever regional player, as well as the US and every other major power at times, and yet mange to thread the needle of staying friendly with the US and Iran at the same time. The way they played out the Saudi sanctions on them was a masterpiece, and they are the biggest gas exporter in the world.

No evidence they are involved of course, but there are plenty of extremely competent militaries in the Middle East.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#580

Post by vasergen »

xg15 wrote: post #535

I find it extremely jarring how many reputable western media outlets immediately jumped to the conclusion that Russia did it even though that made zero sense - but absolutely refused to even consider the possibility that the US or another western state could have done it. But at this point, the article is basically "cool story, bro". The only independently verifyable bits are the public statements of Biden, Nuland, e…

> that Russia did it even though that made zero sense

Can you explain then please how much sense did Russia had to start a war in Ukraine?

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