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“How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

seymourhersh.substack.com

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Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#471

Post by stephc_int13 »

There is one thing that is really bothering me in this story.

I don't really care who is behind the sabotage, they would certainly not admit it for obvious reasons, and it could be more complex than it seems.

But the press, here in the UK, in France and in the US, has been suspiciously "clueless", avoiding with great care to imply that anyone in the west could be behind it, even if it really seems obvious that it could very well be the case.

Why? Why are they so careful? They usually are not afraid to speculate, especially on such a scale.

I find it disturbing to think that they could either have received instructions from their respective governments or are simply afraid push any inquiries on this subject.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#472

Post by Tepix »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #471

There is one thing that is really bothering me in this story. I don't really care who is behind the sabotage, they would certainly not admit it for obvious reasons, and it could be more complex than it seems. But the press, here in the UK, in France and in the US, has been suspiciously "clueless", avoiding with great care to imply that anyone in the west could be behind it, even if it really seems obvious that it cou…

Such an action would be an act of war and uncovering it - in the US - likely seen as unpatriotic or worse.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#473

Post by officehero »

Laaas wrote: post #328

It is bewildering how many here are against this post staying up; no matter whether it's true or not, it's an interesting article! If you feel it is not true, why take it down rather than simply state your opinion in the comments? Do we not have the freedom to discuss and form our own opinions about it?

As a former resident in Russia I'm shocked at how all state controlled media from Russia has been completely censored in the west. I understand why it's done (bcs it breeds conspiracies etc) but it's not for free because now people don't get any 'alternative' view on the matter. Censorship is a tricky thing

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#474

Post by jessaustin »

arcticfox wrote: post #100
jessaustin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I agree that it's not an extraordinary claim, given the few players with the capability and at least theoretical motives. But it's an extraordinarily detailed claim. And it seems to hinge on a single source (is my understanding of journalism broken, aren't you supposed to have confirmation of sources?), who clearly has an agenda given this quote: "The only flaw was the decision to do it." So even if the broad strokes…

Sure, skepticism is warranted, as is usually the case. Those who already suspected the USA military-industrial complex of taking this action that massively benefited the USA military-industrial complex are less likely to dismiss TFA out of hand. Others will have to see a great deal more reporting, and as seen here loads of credulous fools (or impersonators of such) won't believe it even 75 years from now when we have complete FOIA documentation. [0]

However, we may make a few predictions. Over time, as more details emerge, TFA will be shown to be basically correct yet wrong in some important details. As Hersh stipulates, he relies on a single source, which source probably slants a few points in self-interest. The same apologists for imperialism seen here in high dudgeon in total denial, will over time move to more nuanced positions: "of course USA did it, but Hersh portrayed it as something USA shouldn't have done rather than something that muh security demanded! USA couldn't have known that it would lead to European penury and/or nuclear holocaust! Also he claimed that Biden made a decision, when we all know he has been non compos mentis for years... You can't take credit for being right about USA militarism all the time just because you assume it's always evil and stupid." As the avaricious crackpot realism that has pulled us so close to the brink of extinction takes over more and more Western media, we'll see far fewer independent moderation decisions like that of 'dang here today. We can be sure that phone calls have already been made.

[0] That's a joke; USA definitely won't exist 75 years from now, and this event is both contributing cause and justification.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#475

Post by lyu07282 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #401
VincentEvans wrote: post #176

Gazprom, Russian gas monopoly, has on Kremlin’s orders first threatened to, and then suspended gas supplies to Europe in an attempt to blackmail it to stop supporting Ukraine under a threat of, as they put it, “freezing Europe”. In the process unilaterally breaking existing delivery contracts. There were no Western sanctions targeting Russian gas - it was entirely a political operation initiated by Russian government…

Russia is a brutal dictatorship engaging in a war of aggression against the Ukraine and using natural gas as weapon in it's war. But is that a reason to not to address or even mention the topic of the post, the destruction of the Nord Stream pipeline? I mean, are implicitly saying that covert act was justified? If people believe that, they should say it. One of the worst effects of war is an attitude of "not only is…

This almost sounds like you are suggesting that people look at the situation, the motivation and context, to judge the possible consequences and see the reasoning behind those actions. That despite the bad optics of a situation, they can look at the larger picture and consider the unfortunate, grim reality of war. That they are aware of their own blindspots, missing information, lack of understanding of geo politics and judge their own possible ignorance carefully and introspective... before coming up with an opinion on military aid to ukraine.

But no that can't be it, that would be complete insanity.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#476

Post by zelias »

Conceivably this is a pro-Biden article. It demonstrates what Biden is willing to do and/or is capable of when it comes to big, complicated foreign policy questions. If you know ahead of time that a Russian invasion is inevitable (as all intelligence assessments made very clear) wouldn't it be a prudent strategy to relieve Russia of one of its most prominent economic weapons?

Considering the much rumored campaign announcement, I can absolutely see a large portion of "centrist America" respecting Biden for this move, and rewarding him for it. I think this quote from TFA encapsulates the sentiment:

> The source had a much more streetwise view of Biden’s decision to sabotage more than 1500 miles of Gazprom pipeline as winter approached. “Well,” he said, speaking of the President, “I gotta admit the guy has a pair of balls. He said he was going to do it, and he did.”

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#478

Post by Tepix »

kibwen wrote: post #192
Tepix wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blowing up the pipeline is an act of war.

Please be precise. Who, exactly, are you alleging blew up the pipeline in order to declare war on whom? And then the elephant in the room: nobody declared war on anybody in the wake of this, so how is the possible justification for a war that did not happen being used as evidence that this event was designed to incite a war?

From TFA:

The CIA argued that whatever was done, it would have to be covert. Everyone involved understood the stakes. “This is not kiddie stuff,” the source said. If the attack were traceable to the United States, “It’s an act of war.”

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#479

Post by macinjosh »

partiallypro wrote: post #181
throwbadubadu wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe Russia is capable to do that the way it was done... and sorry: They are not even capable to be that stupid also (stupid enough, but that would top it by magnitudes).

> They are not even capable to be that stupid But they were stupid enough to invade Ukraine and think they were going to take it over in 2 weeks? But the US itself is just so stupid that it would jeopardize the entire NATO alliance which is critical to US global power? Ok.

Your only concept for what the Russians were thinking when they invaded Ukraine is what western media and politicians have fed you. You don't actually know anything about what they were thinking. lol.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#480

Post by VincentEvans »

Reason077 wrote: post #455
VincentEvans wrote: post #176

Gazprom, Russian gas monopoly, has on Kremlin’s orders first threatened to, and then suspended gas supplies to Europe in an attempt to blackmail it to stop supporting Ukraine under a threat of, as they put it, “freezing Europe”. In the process unilaterally breaking existing delivery contracts. There were no Western sanctions targeting Russian gas - it was entirely a political operation initiated by Russian government…

It doesn't make sense that Russia would blow up their own pipeline. They can't blackmail Europe with gas if there's no pipeline to supply the gas. And force majeure? That's pretty far-fetched. Why would Russia care about financial penalties? This is the country that effectively stole over 400 airliners by refusing to return them when the leases were terminated.

I explained why Russia would care. Because due to financial need Russia may want to come back to European energy markets where they are facing billions of dollars of contract penalties. They can stop shipments unilaterally, but they can’t do the same if they want to resume shipments.
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