Live data from Hacker News

Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

washingtonpost.com

131–140 of 176 posts

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#131
post #87

What gets me is why so many localities are pushing or requiring electrification when the grid in many areas is already overloaded. For goodness sake California has fairly regular rolling blackouts and yet many cities are banning gas hookups. The right energy tech, IMO, is “all of them”.

California's grid falls down in the summer time during peak air conditioner use. It has spare capacity in the winter time.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#132

I worry about the 'futureproofness' of heat pumps. Specifically, heat pumps use more energy on cold days. They use a massive amount more energy on the coldest days. Today, if you use double the electricity, it costs double the money. Thats affordable as long as it happens rarely. But, with lots of people getting EV's and heat pumps, and the generation mix getting more wind and solar, I forsee energy companies forcing…

My heat pump shuts off when the CoP goes down to 1. I still have my electric baseboards from before so they kick in when the heat pump kicks out. Can't all heat pumps be configured to shut off like mine does?

I live near Maine and have similar weather, and typically the heat pump only goes out for 3 to 5 nights and 1 or 2 days over the winter. The extra cost of a few days of EBB use is pretty minor compared to the savings throughout the other 362 days of the year.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#133
post #46

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

In addition to this, I think we should go back to doing things the hard way, the old-school way: adapt and adjust your lifestyle to temperature changes like our ancestors did. Let the temperature dictate your cooking: do the dishes that require oven use, that require you to have 3 stoves on at the same time (and crucially, avoid these dishes in the summer!). Go on a bulk in the winter time so that you are more resili…

> ...do the dishes that require oven use, that require you to have 3 stoves on at the same time...

This doesn't make a difference in my home in the winter. That said, I'm one of those types that has no issues putting on gloves and layers of clothing and driving around in my doorless and topless Jeep in the winter too.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#134
post #4

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

I like these schemes where two solutions with different performance metrics are combined that cover each others weak points. Other examples are RAM and cache memory, and short term (battery) and long term/backup (hydrogen) energy storage.

Hydrogen is terrible backup storage, as it evaporates through all known materials. Even as metal hydride or ammonia it's not great. (Density for the first, stability for the latter.) This is why everyone still uses hydrocarbons. Pity they don't make or burn them cleanly.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true - efficiency drops. Electrical consumption also drops if your heat exchanger can't scavenge enough heat from the air to vaporize your refrigerant. The compressor must slow down. Or as I pointed out - you can activate a backup heat source which causes a huge spike in electrical usage. Probably better than freezing however.

Most heat pumps don’t have a backup built in anymore, though. I have 2 (LG and Mitsubishi) and neither has a resistive backup built in.

My heat pump is 11 years old and doesn't have a resistive heater. I thought resistive heaters were a new thing. Many people in the Northern US and Canada need some kind of backup and a resistive heater in the heat pump would be a selling point for many.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#136
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw futureproofness I thought you were going to talk about repairability. Thats probably my biggest concern. My heating system is largely made out of commodity parts. Aquastats and zone control boxes form the control system, copper pipes soldered on, pex crimped on. All parts you can buy at any hardware store in the country, and all interchangeable. As long as the actual tank and fire tubes in my boilers are i…

I am with you. I live on a small remote island. Over the past number of years there has been a boom in heat-pumps here due to government subsidies. A local company appeared and was happy to fill the demand for new units. Eventually the new installs dried up and the company disappeared. This winter there has been a number of desperate pleas on facebook for people seeking repairs on their heat pumps and split units. Un…

Once more start getting thrown out I'll have to pick a couple of trashed ones up and see how hackable they are. I wouldn't be surprised if a good amount of the parts besides the control board ended up being interchangeable just due to sourcing parts from the same suppliers. I'll feel a little more confident in them after that.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#137
post #133
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to this, I think we should go back to doing things the hard way, the old-school way: adapt and adjust your lifestyle to temperature changes like our ancestors did. Let the temperature dictate your cooking: do the dishes that require oven use, that require you to have 3 stoves on at the same time (and crucially, avoid these dishes in the summer!). Go on a bulk in the winter time so that you are more resili…

> ...do the dishes that require oven use, that require you to have 3 stoves on at the same time... This doesn't make a difference in my home in the winter. That said, I'm one of those types that has no issues putting on gloves and layers of clothing and driving around in my doorless and topless Jeep in the winter too.

Yeah this might work if you heat your oven with wood.

The outside of our oven gets merely warm. It's safe for our children to touch it.

For the stoves. The pots get hot, fast but the stove itself is more heated up by the pots than generate heat on it's own.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#138
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know all the excitement is around air source pumps, but I'd love to see ground source get cheaper to install. It's nearly impervious to weather conditions. If you live some place that actually gets cold enough to stymie an air pump, then maybe investing in ground source is worth it.

Ground source is losing the war. Too expensive to install, and if something goes wrong, start digging. Air source is getting better and better all the time.

In parts of Canada, such as Alberta, where it goes to -40C, anyone buying an air source heat pump is nuts. Ground source is the only viable heat pump option, in spite of its much higher cost. I guess they'll be stuck on natural gas until the climate rises some more.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#139
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like these schemes where two solutions with different performance metrics are combined that cover each others weak points. Other examples are RAM and cache memory, and short term (battery) and long term/backup (hydrogen) energy storage.

Hydrogen is terrible backup storage, as it evaporates through all known materials. Even as metal hydride or ammonia it's not great. (Density for the first, stability for the latter.) This is why everyone still uses hydrocarbons. Pity they don't make or burn them cleanly.

Hydrogen for backup storage for the grid would be stored underground. This is a demonstrated working technology.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Europe have cold countries? According to some quick Googling, the average winter temperature in Norway is still warmer than in Iowa (a not-particularly-cold state). (FWIW I think heat pumps are interesting, I drive an electric car, etc--I'm not speaking from some reflexively anti-electrification ideological position)

From what I can see Des Moines[1] and Oslo[2] are fairly comparable, and here in Oslo it's quite common to have air to air heat pumps. Mind you, Oslo is quite south in Norway, it's much colder further north. [1]: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/climate?wfo=dmx (annual) [2]: https://seklima.met.no/months/max(air_temperature P1M),mean(air_temperature P1M),min(air_temperature P1M)/recurring_period/SN18700/nb/2003-01-01T00:0…

Oslo seems to have mean winter temps about ~10 degrees warmer (~23 degrees in DSM on average vs ~32 degrees in Oslo). It's a little hard to compare those tools (at least I didn't find a good way to get precise mean data on the Oslo side). And I suspect that Norway is one of the coldest countries in Europe while Iowa is not a particularly code state in the US.
Post reply on HN