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Zoom lays off 15% of employees

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Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this discussion literally about the idiomatic concepts involved? The whole argument of semantics is a "literally vs. figuratively" discussion. Workers were "used" in the way I use a tool to do a job, but potentially not "used" in a colloquial English way that someone tricks someone into doing something for them. If anything, this is because Americans on HN think too much about the concepts underlying words…

I think you are both right to a certain extent. As the comment thread demonstrates, some people think the literal definition of used is exploitative. This begs the question of why people thank the literal definition is different. I think a reasonable hypothesis is that American English speakers communicate less with non-native speakers who have learned a textbook definition.

That makes sense - if you learn words and phrases from their common use vs. from instruction, you're more likely to know both the literal and colloquial version of the words.

That said, taking everything as textbook literal isn't viable in most languages. English isn't even close to the top of the heap of languages that use idioms and contextual clues to change the meaning of words and phrases. In the context of a thread where people are likely upset about layoffs, taking the use of the word "used" to have more of a negative than neutral connotation makes sense.

It's not as if we're looking at a textbook example with "Jack used their employee James" and you have to guess what definition of "used" is intended. No one is arguing that OP meant that Zoom literally picked up their employees and wielded them in combat, even though that could be a viable context-less definition for "used".

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you feel your work is so incredibly valuable you can either start a company yourself or become a gold-ticket consultant. Either way you'll quickly learn that turning your hard work into revenue on your own with any decent amount of efficiency is not that simple.

> If you feel your work is so incredibly valuable you can either start a company yourself or become a gold-ticket consultant. > Either way you'll quickly learn that turning your hard work into revenue on your own with any decent amount of efficiency is not that simple. I work as a consultant in part because it makes turning my work into revenue easier . :D But, that's overly-glib--I'm aware that my career is somewhat…

The thing is, if you feel you're being paid too little for your work there are basically 3 reasons:

1 - you are wrong because you're not that good

2 - you are right, but the overhead necessary for the company to survive does not allow them to pay you as much

3 - you are right and they are exploiting you

The way to prove case 1 wrong is to start your own business or consultancy and earn more money than you did before. But to prove 2 or 3 you would have to create a very similar company and prove it can successfully operate while earning the employees much more money, which would be very difficult.

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs that hire new grads or juniors in general seem to be a lot harder to find as well

Oversaturation to some degree. The same thing happened in the legal field. Becoming a lawyer used to be a one way ticket to the upper middle class. Not so much anymore. The same thing is happening with CS and SWE degrees. They're still great degrees, and probably still worth the money. But much less so than they were even a few years ago.

Law and CS/programming are a bit different though. Law seems to tend towards a bimodal salary distribution where you have the top 10 school grads who clerked for a federal appeals court/SCOTUS/etc. and work at a white shoe law firm in a big city--and you have the public defenders/real estate lawyers in shopping malls/etc. It's not really that black and white--you have people who do well enough as corporate counsels and the like--but that's a common pattern.

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you feel your work is so incredibly valuable you can either start a company yourself or become a gold-ticket consultant. > Either way you'll quickly learn that turning your hard work into revenue on your own with any decent amount of efficiency is not that simple. I work as a consultant in part because it makes turning my work into revenue easier . :D But, that's overly-glib--I'm aware that my career is somewhat…

The thing is, if you feel you're being paid too little for your work there are basically 3 reasons: 1 - you are wrong because you're not that good 2 - you are right, but the overhead necessary for the company to survive does not allow them to pay you as much 3 - you are right and they are exploiting you The way to prove case 1 wrong is to start your own business or consultancy and earn more money than you did before.…

If, as you say, "there are basically 3 reasons", then disproving 1 should be sufficient to prove that 2 or 3 is true. You're just trying to place an unreasonable burden of proof on possibilities you disagree with.

There is no difference between possibilities 2 and 3. If the overhead necessary for a company to survive doesn't allow them to pay their workers, the company shouldn't survive. Mysteriously, companies that underpay their workers always have money to pay their execs and shareholders--you're just expecting workers to pay the overhead instead of the people at the top. All this is, is a shitty excuse for exploiting workers.

As for proving 1 incorrect: whenever essential workers unionize--analogous to starting their own consultancy--money suddenly materializes to pay them more. As it turns out, essential workers are essential, and the only reason they get paid less is that the people at the top can pay them less and keep more money for themselves.

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#575
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? What 'fairness' exactly is it people want when companies do layoffs? "Hey, we are laying off 3,000 people. Because of that, I am firing myself and the company will no longer have a CEO and will have to find someone else, starting immediately. In addition, I plan to donate all of my life's savings and file for unemployment like everyone else and, if needed, live in my van down by the river. I hope this make…

"Because of that, I am firing myself" A team does terrible for awhile -- should the coach be removed? A company does terrible -- should the CEO be removed? This is what accountability means. Just this year I was hired by a Board Of Directors, of a startup with 150 people, to do an evaluation of the technology and code, and I found epic levels of tech debt and irresponsible decision making. When I gave my report to th…

This is some sort of blame game? Why stop there? Why don’t we fire the whole chain of management, including the top guy, AND let all these people that were laid of KEEP their jobs instead. It wasn’t their fault after all and we are making decision on the basis of blames, right? Let’s see how that turns out.

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"You were used" is a bit much. You go to work to earn a paycheck. I'm not sure how many people bought into the whole "we're a family" stuff, but obviously these are for-profit corporations and they are beholden only to their shareholders. There was never the illusion otherwise, unless you truly believed that now that you're in, you're in. There is a lot of corporate ink spilled trying to convince people of exactly t…

If people are always "protected" how do you deal with low performing companies? If Zoom becomes unusable because it is crashing all the time and everyone switches to another service where do you think the money is going to come from to pay these "protected" employees? Fire the CEO, sure, but where is the money coming from for the thousands of other employees?

Even in areas with good strong unions, there isn’t some kind of company wide protection. If the company doesn’t fit in the market, it goes away. I’m not weaving some fantasy tale, these systems exist in other countries that still have free markets and profitable companies.

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 billion dollars.

His point, which you failed to address with your smug response, is the well-understood fact that the utility value of money falls greatly, the more money one has. The utility of 5 billion dollars is essentially zero to someone who already has a billion.

[deleted]

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. …and the stakes are even higher today if you count the number of people impacted by poor decisions.

> Falling on your sword is literally exactly what accountability used to be. I wonder if you hold this level of rigour towards your own failings and shortcomings, or if this desire is directed exclusively at everyone besides yourself.

“For my friends, everything. For my enemies? The law.” - Oscar R. Benavides, President of Peru from 1933 to 1939

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ahh - a visible /s would have been helpful :)

It wasn’t obvious from the North Korean prison camp mention? The comment literal dripped sarcasm

This is the internet, it's hard to tell where some opinions end and where sarcasm starts these days. :)

Re: Zoom lays off 15% of employees

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 billion dollars.

His point, which you failed to address with your smug response, is the well-understood fact that the utility value of money falls greatly, the more money one has. The utility of 5 billion dollars is essentially zero to someone who already has a billion.

The marginal utility falls, but it's a hell of a lot more than zero.
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