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Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

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Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#11

Post by hedora »

londons_explore wrote: post #7
flyingfences wrote: post #3

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

I don’t know what you mean by “enthusiasts”. Dual source heat pumps are completely standard at this point. Even here in California (annual lows in the high 20F’s), it is hard to find a single source heatpump.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#12

Post by hallidave »

londons_explore wrote: post #7
flyingfences wrote: post #3

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

In cold climates, heat pumps are usually supplemented with electrical resistance heating (or even gas in some cases). The switch over is automatically controlled by the thermostat. No need for a wood stove or other hassles.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#13

Post by ilamont »

I live outside of Boston, about two hours south of Portland Maine. We have a LG Heat Pump installed in 2021, consisting of the following:

LG/LG LMU360HHV Outdoor Unit

2 LG LSN180HSV5 Indoor Units

2 LG LMN079HVT Indoor Units

We also have a natural gas furnace, now rarely used ... except when it gets really cold. During the deep freeze I wanted to see how low the LG could go before the gas furnace kicked in.

The house is 100+ years old, with updated insulation in the basement and roof as of 2021 (required to get a no-interest loan on the heat pump in our state).

On Friday, as the temp dropped, we set the units to 70 degrees F (21C). At 1 pm it was 15F outside (-10C) and the interior temp was 62F (17C). It was able to maintain that interior temp until 9:30 pm when the thermometer dropped to -3F (-20C) at which point the interior edged down to 60F and the furnace kicked in.

The heat pump continued to work all night, albeit blowing lukewarm air. At 6 am it was still dark and the outside temp had dropped to -11F (-24C) and the heat pump was still working but the gas furnace was doing most of the work to keep the interior at 60F.

On a local FB group, people shared their heat pump stories. A few only had heat pumps with no backup and reported the interior temp dropped to the 40s or low 50s (~10C). One person said that one of their two outside units froze during the night (I believe the result of condensation forming). Regardless of the type of heat, many people all over the city had burst pipes in their walls, ceilings, and basements, including several hospitals.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#14

Post by acidburnNSA »

Perhaps ironically, oil fired generators have to fire up to supply enough electricity for these cold snaps. Low-carbon nuclear, high-carbon fracked gas, and high-carbon oil are the three largest sources of electricity in Maine during deep freezes.

https://www.themainewire.com/2023/02/amid-cold-snap-maines-e...

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#15

Post by hedora »

aidenn0 wrote: post #10
londons_explore wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

There is no modern system that "just works" whatever the weather. We had an ice storm when I was growing up and lost power for 3 days. Wood stove worked great as a backup, not much else would have.

Dual source heatpump + Solar + battery + propane generator might be OK. The batteries would need to somehow be kept warm though.

(The solar and battery are there to stretch out the propane supply until the delivery truck gets past whatever road blockages exist, and then addresses the inevitable shortage cause by the electricity going out.)

Of course, an 80% efficient wood stove costs a small fraction as much as the above setup, and is more reliable.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#16

Post by AbrahamParangi »

londons_explore wrote: post #7
flyingfences wrote: post #3

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

I would always want a wood stove or at minimum a fireplace in sufficiently cold climates (anywhere it gets cold enough for snow to accumulate) if my heating was electric.

Easy for your power to go out, and it’s somewhere between uncomfortable and dangerous when that happens If you don’t have a backup.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#17

Post by flyingfences »

londons_explore wrote: post #7
flyingfences wrote: post #3

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

And for every day of most years in Maine, the heat pump alone "just works". Cold this cold is very rare. Usually, the heat pump only goes out when the power goes out, in which case oil and gas heat goes out, too -- no power means no blower and circulator motors. Woodstoves have always been popular (though by no means ubiquitous) up here because the power does go out, because they're cheaper than fossil fuels, and because they're cozy. Lots of people have them even with oil and gas heat. Growing up, we used wood day-to-day and oil as a backup; many more people use the easier heat day-to-day and light the fire on occasions when they want to gather 'round it.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#18

Post by londons_explore »

I worry about the 'futureproofness' of heat pumps.

Specifically, heat pumps use more energy on cold days. They use a massive amount more energy on the coldest days.

Today, if you use double the electricity, it costs double the money. Thats affordable as long as it happens rarely.

But, with lots of people getting EV's and heat pumps, and the generation mix getting more wind and solar, I forsee energy companies forcing customers onto dynamic pricing plans. Ie. the price adjusts every hour of the day.

Now when it's cold, and everyone else is trying to use extra power for their EV's and heat pumps, the price will go way up. So now, instead of using double the power and paying double, you'll use double but pay 50x.

Suddenly the economics of a heat pump don't look so attractive when you realise you paid $300 on one cold night...

Dual heat sources solve this (I doubt gas will ever have dynamic hourly pricing).

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#19

Post by mkozlows »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #14

Perhaps ironically, oil fired generators have to fire up to supply enough electricity for these cold snaps. Low-carbon nuclear, high-carbon fracked gas, and high-carbon oil are the three largest sources of electricity in Maine during deep freezes. https://www.themainewire.com/2023/02/amid-cold-snap-maines-e...

It's not that ironic. Electrification isn't a "welp, we're done now, yay" thing, it's one of two parallel paths that works together for decarbonization.

1. Electrify all the things 2. Clean up the electrical supply

Obviously if you only look at one of the paths in isolation, it doesn't solve problems ("it's great that everything's electric, but electricity is still high carbon"/"it's great that electricity is clean, but most energy use isn't electric"), but there's no path forward on climate that doesn't involve both.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#20

Post by rsynnott »

londons_explore wrote: post #7
flyingfences wrote: post #3

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

> Regular folk aren't interested in heating systems, so will pay a small premium for a system that just works, whatever the weather.

So, heat pump with resistive electric assist? Of course, that's no good to you if the power goes, but then nor are most heating systems.

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