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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#261

Post by klibertp »

bombolo wrote: post #180
lovich wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." I could easily turn that characterization around. "Please OS vendor, I want something that just works, please don't add customization options that I will never use but if I accidentally select will effectively brick my machine for the technical skill level I have." I might be dating myself here but…

> do you not remember all the complaints about something as simple as resetting a VCR's clock and parents just living with it blinking after a power outage Why fix it? What's the drawback in leaving it blinking? They could fix it, they just didn't bother. Kids just have more free time.

Unless you're very lucky, it's going to be showing the wrong time. I don't think I ever had a power outage precisely on 00:00. Blinking is actually a nice reminder that you should not look at that clock to check the time. In any case: yeah, you have a single source of time info disabled, but there's a wall clock above the tv, so really, why bother setting the time right?

Unless you want to record that show that plays at a time when you have to be out. That's when you call out to the kids to do whatever it takes (setting the clock is one of the things to do, but why bother with the details).

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#262

Post by Mountain_Skies »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #131

What does Moz hope to accomplish? That Firefox will be used on iOS by any quantifiable amount of users when we all know only Chrome has to gain from opening iOS to their tracking and Google's ads? Such that Google completely dominates the web and any way of monetizing it, to be soon extended into "best rendered using Chrome" more than it is already? Why is Moz doing this, in the name of bland fake-juvenile "the web w…

The Mozilla Foundation has been quite the comfy "job", especially for social activists using Foundation resources for their advocacy. Of course, they want to expand their pool of resources, but Firefox is pretty much the only thing they have that can accomplish this. They've shown they really don't give a damn about Firefox itself, but they do care greatly about the lifestyle it provides them.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#263

Post by xen2xen1 »

anders_p wrote: post #76
loup-vaillant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

"No one's that stupid" 99.9% of people are not like you. They barely even know the difference between Windows and Google. People who got online when smartphones entered the scene have a difficult time when I try to explain what "folders" and "files" are. I do a lot of tech support for family and friends. They NEVER enter settings or preferences for their OS or their browser. They're afraid they'll "break something".…

I just want it to work! Stupid thing! Why is it so slow!

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#264

Post by zamadatix »

pffft8888 wrote: post #108
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #86

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

Browsers are using what the OS provides. I am not aware of any browser reimplementing Vulcan, DirectX or Metal, nor am I familiar with any browser reimplementing any feature of the underlying OS. It's just an application where you can build other applications and it provides access to some OS features via a scripting (higher level) language that's highly imperfect but thoroughly documented and used by millions. Speak…

They pretty much all re-implement OpenGL since they needed WebGL/WebGL2 to work reliably across platforms, some of which don't even ship OpenGL at all. SPDY/QUIC/HTTP3 re-implement a lot of the OS level socket stuff in the browser. Hardware interfaces for USB, Bluetooth, and Serial are exposed to avoid needing device specific drivers for many things. It has the ability to be the compositor, window manager, and display server (see ChromiumOS/ChromeOS).

The browser certainly hasn't eaten all of the host OS yet and still depends on it for many low level things but at the same time browsers go far beyond what the OS provides and reimplement many things that 20 years ago would have had you laughed at for implying are part of the browser and not the OS.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#265

Post by jeroenhd »

midoridensha wrote: post #126
flakeoil wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings. The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or…

I was only addressing how hard it is to install a browser of your choice on Windows, that's all. Honestly, I haven't used Windows in a while so maybe I'm out-of-date, maybe it's much worse than I thought. Ads on the start menu and stuff like that is horrible, I agree, but it's a different issue than browser choice.

When you try to install Firefox from a clean Windows install, Microsoft gets desperate. The default search engine is Bing so if you search for "download Firefox" you get a large ad-like panel above the results telling you how great Edge is and that you really don't need to change browsers. Then when you finally install Firefox, it'll put ads in your start menu to "try Edge", I've even seen it add a little popup when I tried to open Firefox though I don't know if they still do that.

Microsoft disabled the API that let's you change the default browser because Chrome and Firefox kept doing that automatically when you clicked a button. Mozilla reverse engineered the new method of setting the browser but Microsoft then cried foul because you're not supposed to be able to set the default browser from within your preferred browser unless you're Edge.

And then with every major update you risk your browser preferences being reset because of "bugs". I've had Google set as my default search engine in Edge (to avoid the desperate ads from MS) but that got reset one update. The default browser got reset twice. Microsoft assures us that these were bugs and mistakes and that they didn't intend to change user settings, though.

I have a hard time believing any of it ever since the day I got an ad for their browser in my start menu.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#266

Post by JamesSwift »

nicoburns wrote: post #253
trelane wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they have secret APIs the rest of us plebes don't get?

No, they just focus on power consumption more than the other browsers (they also have the advantage of not needing to work cross-platform, making this easier). This is often why Safari is behind other browsers on features: a focus on quality of implementation of quantity of features.

I also would want a source for that. At least in the mobile dev space, it has always been common practice for them to leverage private APIs to do things regular app devs cant.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#267

Post by blacklion »

tuyiown wrote: post #102

Dear mozilla, The web is dying under chrome, with the excuse that iOS has its responsibility in the stale doesn't help either. It's dying, not because of vendors pushing their favorite flavor, but because it has a terrible, horrible API, that make building an app with tightly controller Ui and Ux atop of it a Sisyph-ian challenge. It's horrible for 3 key points reasons: - the insistance that the document oriented API…

Web can not be dying because "building an app .... is Sisyph-ian challenge". Web is dying because you try to create apps, not linked documents. Web is not for apps.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#268

Post by jeroenhd »

severino wrote: post #53
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store Not every Android device has access to Google Play, yet Mozilla still doesn't provide an APK download for Firefox from its website to make sure those users can have their browser too, despite all of this complaining.

I wish they'd set up an F-Droid repo so you don't need to follow Github links to download Firefox. F-Droid is the de-facto open source app store for Android, after all. Bromite, a privacy-focused Chrome replacement, has an F-Droid repo, and that's run by a single guy as far as I can tell, so surely Mozilla can do the same.

Right now only Fennec is on F-Droid (which has some changes that give you more user freedom than the default browser build…) but Firefox is nowhere to be found. Their build process is incompatible with the official repo but that doesn't mean they can't set up their own repo instead.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#269

Post by sidewndr46 »

lovich wrote: post #38
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

But if you're browsing the web aren't you by definition going to "use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly"? I'm always impressed when I realized a website did a redesign that basically moved buttons from the top of the screen to the bottom of the screen.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#270

Post by berkeleyjunk »

Lutger wrote: post #176
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

You are making one mistake here: people actually do want a different toast if its significantly better than the current one that burns their edges too many times. Chrome was able to outcompete everything else on Windows, despite Microsoft trying to prevent it. People actively installed it, just because it was better, also the so-called stupid users were able to install it. If this was possible on apple devices, who k…

Or if you want a more uncharitable take, Google used its position in search, email, videos to keep nagging people to install Chrome in order to be able to get performance benefits.
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