Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

stephendiehl.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 396 posts

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#371

Post by ernst_klim »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #153
ernst_klim wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can regular people do anything with it? No. It's used a lot in the third world. In Georgia you can buy a burger paying crypto via NFC terminal. I also know people who get their salaries in crypto. And it's used a lot for donating to opposition where it's illegal, like in most dictatorship.

I feel bad for them then. I don't know enough about economics or politics, but it would seem preferable if they could be paid in US dollars. Maybe orthogonal (?) but it sounds a little like an argument in support of lotteries. Though lotteries seem to primarily draw money away from the working class that can least afford it, banning the lottery would seem to take away that sliver of a chance that they can be lifted o…

> but it would seem preferable if they could be paid in US dollars

There are USD-bound cryptos like USDT, it's all about infrastructure.

The point is that using Visa, Swift and other infra is usually bad option. In the 90s people used cash USD to transfer value, but risks were higher than with crypto, so now crypto is popular as USD cash replacement, a mean to transfer value under the radar or malicious government, bypassing sanctions, avoiding hyperinflation etc etc.

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#372

Post by ernst_klim »

A_Venom_Roll wrote: post #144
ernst_klim wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can regular people do anything with it? No. It's used a lot in the third world. In Georgia you can buy a burger paying crypto via NFC terminal. I also know people who get their salaries in crypto. And it's used a lot for donating to opposition where it's illegal, like in most dictatorship.

Can you give some estimates about how much crypto is "used" in the third world, or at least give some sources for this statement?

I have no estimates, only my experience from visiting these countries, but I found an article regarding Georgia [1].

But it's pretty widespread, Navalny, the main Putin opponent uses crypto as the main source of donations since all his accounts were frozen, Ukrainian army accepts donations in crypto, Belarus opposition uses crypto, hundreds of thousands of Russians used crypto to move their savings out of Russia, Iranians, Chinese and Venezuelans use it a lot too.

[1] https://forbes.ge/en/georgia-a-new-crypto-hub-with-emerging-...

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#373

Post by birracerveza »

simplotek wrote: post #338
birracerveza wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but I didn't use it (because I think it's a scam) therefore it's not money nor currency. I can't understand these people. I have a bank account with FIAT, and I also have BTC. I use both to pay for things. Although I mostly use FIAT, I also have a credit card that I charge with BTC to pay for things, but if I have the option I also pay with BTC directly. How is that "not a currency"? Because some people use it…

> Yeah, but I didn't use it (because I think it's a scam) therefore it's not money nor currency. This blend of arguments is either terribly ignorant or disingenuous. The definition of money is not "something that might have value to someone". Money has a very concrete definition, which lies in three key traits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money Point out exactly which of these key functions do you believe any crypt…

Sure.

BTC is a medium, measure, standard and store of value.

BTC is also durable, divisible, portable, acceptable and scarce.

Sadly for fungibility you need to look at XMR, which I prefer exactly for this reason.

But saying crypto is not money is a terribly ignorant and/or disingenuous argument.

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#374

Post by serko »

dmantis wrote: post #214
atdrummond wrote: post #179

Be grateful you live in the EU or the US and don’t need crypto. It has been a major lifeline for my family and friends in Lebanon and Venezuela, both of which lack fully functioning financial services. I can send Bitcoin just fine though!

As well as thousands of Russians outside of Russia got their banks accounts blocked and sanctions restricted our money to be 100_000 EUR max per person. Hundreds of years of liberal ideas of individual rights just crushed below collective responsibility idea for some dictator actions. People moved billions out of Russia with bitcoin and other currencies. They saved their money after sanctions with passports based dis…

I hardly think you cared about the dictatorship before the "partial" mobilization began.

And if something had collective approval (even through silence), then it must also have collective responsibility.

Don't try to play a victim card here, Russian, we all saw what you did and continue doing. And some of us even experienced it.

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#375

Post by Laurenz1337 »

I gotta disagree with this author on the whole "no intrinsic value" thing when it comes to crypto. Sure, it's true that cryptocurrencies aren't physical assets like gold or silver, but that doesn't mean they don't have value. People are willing to pay money for them, which gives them value. It's supply and demand, plain and simple. Plus, with blockchain technology, crypto is much more secure and transparent compared to traditional forms of currency. So don't be so quick to dismiss it as just entries in a database created out of thin air. There's definitely more to it than that.

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#376

Post by luma »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #359
luma wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming volume is in wash trading, which is just a different kind of fraud. It's all fraud.

is using bitcoin to transfer some of l your wealth out of country to avoid currency controls fraud? I don't think so but IANAL I read that crypto is also being used for rapid cross country remittances, which may be totally legal. -- Don't think I'm a crypto fan. The value is all based purely on shared beliefs. At least government fiat is backed by the taxing authority (while undermined by the printing authority)

If it's being used instead of some other wire transfer in order to dodge government rules on capital controls etc, then yes it's used to evade the legal system and thus also fraud. The fees are not incredibly low nor is the service particularly user friendly or reliable compared to something like Western Union. Bitcoin et al is not providing a useful alternative to existing, legal services. They do of course provide an alternative for other services.

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#378

Post by empthought »

ashwagary wrote: post #370
empthought wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where to begin telling you how wrong you are. Hammurabi's code has plenty of examples of a punishment of being put to death because you didn't have witnesses, a contract, or a receipt for paying for something. (It's easy for someone else to accuse you of stealing.)

Incorrect. Even in Hammurabi's code, receipts for agents, witnesses, and contracts, were only used for settling disputes in court where fraud may have been committed. Those instances with conflicting claims were a tiny minority of overall transaction volume, meaning receipts were optional and not required for the vast majority of transactions; especially between trusted parties. As far as that "state" was concerned,…

Incorrect. The reason fraud was rare was because of the general insistence on documentation. Court challenges were rare because people did in fact KYC.

Re: Yes, Crypto Is All a Scam

#380

Post by leadingthenet »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #88
capableweb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? That makes sense and I'd agree with that. Author of the submission don't seem to think that's a useful distinction though, which seems slightly extreme.

> Bitcoin itself is not a scam, but people can use it to do scams? I’d expand this to anyone using it to make money is perpetuating a scam.

I'm not sure why that should necessarily be the case. E.g. if a vendor sells a legitimate good and accepts bitcoin as an alternative mode of payment to fiat, and the buyer acquired those coins in a legitimate manner, in what way is that perpetuating a scam? Isn't that the original purpose outlined in the whitepaper?
Post reply on HN