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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#171

Post by rezonant »

severino wrote: post #53
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store Not every Android device has access to Google Play, yet Mozilla still doesn't provide an APK download for Firefox from its website to make sure those users can have their browser too, despite all of this complaining.

This is actually another example of where OSes get in the way of browser freedom. Because of Google Play Services and its dependency on phones that have Google Play Store, it may be more difficult to support multiple builds of the app than it should be. Still, this is a good point, would love to see Mozilla support non-GMS Android devices.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#172

Post by rxyz »

izacus wrote: post #138
agos wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is also pushed quite aggressively by Google

How exactly? Microsoft has been randomly resetting my default browser back to Edge on every big Windows update. They've thrown Edge on my desktop against my wish. They keep buggering me to change the default back. And yet, somehow, Chrome is still more popular. So what are those horrible tactics Google uses to brainwash people into using their browsers when both of their major competitors use their own operating syst…

Google sometimes bugs you to download Chrome within unrelated search results.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#173

Post by Dalewyn »

atahanacar wrote: post #166
Dalewyn wrote: post #25

I'll give Mozilla market share again when they give me decent software again. Until then, they can RIP in pieces as they continue to bitch while not doing anything useful. Also worth noting that Chrome flies right in the face of this essay anyway. The only OS Chrome can't nom is iOS by sheer virtue of Apple mandates that Microsoft once got burned for.

This comment reads like it was written by someone who has never used Firefox in the last 5 years.

I have, and I wouldn't even imagine using it unless it was already there as a leftover of times long gone.

I don't even need to argue my point either, because everyone else already has: People will use the browser best suited for purpose. Once upon a time that browser was IE6, then it was Firefox, now it's Chrome. Firefox lost because Mozilla fails to deliver a browser the users want, it's really as simple as that.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#174

Post by chaxor »

antwang wrote: post #150
midoridensha wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have two otherwise-equal choices, but one has great default settings, but allows you to change things if you really really want, and the other has the same great defaults, but is locked down and doesn't allow you any choice, then if you pick the locked-down choice, I think you're frankly quite stupid. What I think is really stupid is how many people seem to think that having the ability to change things means…

Not really, the choice will then becomes use chrome and deal with their JIT draining your phone/privacy invasive ads or you cant use this feature from google docs/slides/youtube being slow… etc

Bringing up the device performance and hinting at planned obsolescence of devices is probably not the best tactic here when debating android vs iOS. Apple has a worse track record when it comes to that (while still allowing Google/android plenty of room for the same).

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#175

Post by rxyz »

askonomm wrote: post #117
iSnow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am honestly glad that the EU forces vendors to put the customer first. I won't be sad if they force opening of the walled garden that is the iOS app store.

> customers first > opening of walled garden Yeah, I wonder how secure those customers would be when any kind of third party app store can just show up and start releasing data stealing, virus-infested apps, with no oversight? The idea that allowing a wild west of things because "freedom" is somehow better for the end customer is very shortsighted. I've never had to assist anybody in my family who has an iPhone, that…

Straight out of Federighi's infamous keynote, lmao

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#176

Post by Lutger »

lovich wrote: post #38
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

You are making one mistake here: people actually do want a different toast if its significantly better than the current one that burns their edges too many times.

Chrome was able to outcompete everything else on Windows, despite Microsoft trying to prevent it. People actively installed it, just because it was better, also the so-called stupid users were able to install it.

If this was possible on apple devices, who knows? Maybe it would have been the end of safari.

Users just want toast, but they do prefer great toast above mediocre toast and will spend some effort on getting it.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#177

Post by bombolo »

saurik wrote: post #135
lovich wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're afraid they'll "break something". Right? I feel like my non technical social connections have an even greater learned helplessness from interacting with any sort of open to customization technology because they've learned that everytime they touch something the tool stops working in a way they don't understand. Most people are not going to spend days to weeks, and definitely not months to years learning how…

I dunno... the way it feels on the other side is that y'all think people are too dumb to not hurt themselves with hammers--which is true!!--and so, rather than trust that people who are afraid of hammers will simply avoid using a hammer they should be actively prevented from even owning a hammer, or even letting their friend or a hired carpenter use a hammer to help them, which is kind of overkill.

> which is kind of overkill.

But a profitable one

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#178

Post by chaxor »

BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #86

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

Dedicated JavaScript processor sounds interesting. I wonder who will do the JPU first, and how many requests it will send per second to IP addresses you didn't ask it to send.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#179

Post by boomboomsubban »

krono wrote: post #91
boomboomsubban wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not particularly. From 2008 to 2018, their revenue grew more than 400%, and much of that was due to executives doing a better job selling the search deal. Then getting more money when you become CEO seems normal.

Revenue is about the only thing that might have improved. The meat and potatoes certainly haven't. Edit: was not my intention to make this sound so unfair to the moz employees and contributors - it's all on management

Revenue's pretty damn important, without the increase Firefox likely would have been dead years ago.

The management has hardly been flawless, but I don't know how to compete with opponents that have practically unlimited budgets with no expectation of being independently profitable, first IE then Chrome. Any move that isn't a grand slam will be viewed as a failure.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#180

Post by bombolo »

lovich wrote: post #80
loup-vaillant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

>"Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." I could easily turn that characterization around. "Please OS vendor, I want something that just works, please don't add customization options that I will never use but if I accidentally select will effectively brick my machine for the technical skill level I have." I might be dating myself here but…

> do you not remember all the complaints about something as simple as resetting a VCR's clock and parents just living with it blinking after a power outage

Why fix it? What's the drawback in leaving it blinking?

They could fix it, they just didn't bother. Kids just have more free time.

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