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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#71

Post by erik »

the_other wrote: post #24
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like: Chrome: 65.6% iOS Safari: 18% All others: 16.4% Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

> Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

Agreed. If the doors open, then Google will fight for the iOS browser space. And their ability to leverage all of their properties is pretty powerful here.

If Chrome takes over iOS, then that's it. No one will bother with site compatibility for anything else. Firefox's chances to stay relevant in that world will be slim.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#72

Post by shawn-butler »

largepeepee wrote: post #58
kolinko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“offender” suggests undue negativity. For me, the biggest selling point of iOS is it’s lock in - be it in browsers or the store. My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. So far nobody developed a mobile system that is more open and just as safe and robust.

>My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.

>> Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too.

To whom?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#73

Post by lovich »

kajecounterhack wrote: post #69
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Is it really a feature to not be allowed to use non-webkit Chrome on my iPhone, even if it might unlock superior features? Is it a feature that Google Fi can't work optimally on iPhone thanks to their anti-competitive restrictions? Is it a feature that I have to use Siri, which is way inferior to Google Assistant, when communicating in CarPlay? Is the planned obsolescence a feature too? My 12 year old Mac laptop is d…

>Is it really a feature to not be allowed to use non-webkit Chrome on my iPhone, even if it might unlock superior features?

Yes it is for many people. They do not want to risk the chance of their tool not working for some nebulous chance at a better experience. The vast majority of people are not tinkerer's at heart.

The rest of your questions can all be answered with "Yes", as long as the tool does as expected. We are literally all in the 1% of people just to begin with by even configuring software in the first place.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#74

Post by zerodensity »

lovich wrote: post #38
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

I'm pretty sure Apple updates it's browser just as much as Google chrome, firefox or edge is updated.

Browsers in general do often change with new temporary user facing features.

People choose iOS because it's a status symbol or they like the design of the interface. Not because they are afraid of updates.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#75

Post by lovich »

em-bee wrote: post #55
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

the recommendation for Firefox Nightly aside, noone is forced to accept constantly updating apps, and adding features that get removed after a short time is also an unfair characterization. i don't update Firefox more often than i want to, and even when i update, i rarely notice any changes. big changes come less than once a year. but i have the choice to update or switch browsers if i want to, and that's the point.…

I mean, I was referring specifically to firefox nightly in terms of adding features that can get removed. I confirmed before I posted the comment and it still a warning smack dab on their splash page. I use firefox on a daily basis personally.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#76

Post by anders_p »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #61
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

"No one's that stupid"

99.9% of people are not like you.

They barely even know the difference between Windows and Google.

People who got online when smartphones entered the scene have a difficult time when I try to explain what "folders" and "files" are.

I do a lot of tech support for family and friends.

They NEVER enter settings or preferences for their OS or their browser.

They're afraid they'll "break something".

The disconnect between tech literate people like you, and what they think most users want - or even care about - is mind blowing.

Does anyone here remember the headache you'd get, when helping a family member, and you saw how many toolbars and viruses they'd managed to install, since you last checked their PC two months ago???

The lockdown is a feature - not a bug - in most user's minds.

And I has made my life so much easier.

I use Linux and side load apps.

But I'm so, so, happy that none of my family members are even able to do the same.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#77

Post by cedilla »

rerdavies wrote: post #23
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that really is not anywhere near drowning in money.

They have $1.1 billion dollars in net assets. How is that NOT drowning in money?!

They are a company, not a single person. 1.1 billion is only three times their yearly expenses.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#78

Post by amelius »

midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

If you want general purpose computers, look for industrial gear, not consumer products.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#79

Post by kergonath »

largepeepee wrote: post #58
kolinko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“offender” suggests undue negativity. For me, the biggest selling point of iOS is it’s lock in - be it in browsers or the store. My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. So far nobody developed a mobile system that is more open and just as safe and robust.

>My phone is the centre of my privacy, and I want it to be as solid and as safe as possible. If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple. Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too. There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.

> If privacy was the main concern, you wouldn't be using any of the ad vendors, which includes apple.

That is a false equivalence.

> Yes, apple does sell your data. They just don't want others to do it too.

This badly needs a source.

> There are plenty of smaller security focused phone vendors these days that doesn't intersect with user interest.

This badly needs examples.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#80

Post by lovich »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #61
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

>"Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine."

I could easily turn that characterization around. "Please OS vendor, I want something that just works, please don't add customization options that I will never use but if I accidentally select will effectively brick my machine for the technical skill level I have." I might be dating myself here but do you not remember all the complaints about something as simple as resetting a VCR's clock and parents just living with it blinking after a power outage until their technically inclined children took it upon themselves to fix it?

>No one's that stupid.

They don't have to be stupid, but that doesn't mean the time invested in learning the skills to modify and customize software and hardware is something they want to do. My original point was that people in this thread and others across this site keep talking like they cannot _fathom_ why someone would choose a locked down version of a product over an open one, and I pointed out why many people would.

>And that just reeks of authoritarianism.

Moralize elsewhere here. No one forced people to buy an iPhone and yet its massively popular. More open products exist for cheaper. Tbh the only who seems to be implying that people are dumb and pushing authoritarianism are the group who keeps pushing to break up these machines that just "work" that the market is showing a high level of preference for

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