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Tech's Elite Hates Labor

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Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#361

Post by pdonis »

topaz0 wrote: post #346
pdonis wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that wasn't always the case in the past Yes, that's correct. The movement of stock ownership to mutual funds largely took place in the few decades after WW II. > presumably it's also possible for things to be different in the future Yes, but the changes that would have to take place are quite drastic. I don't think disallowing mutual funds is an option. But the only other mechanism of control (aside from market for…

I didn't say it would be easy. What I said is that the potential for change is rooted in organizing and class struggle. > regulatory capture Regulatory capture just is the capitalist class organizing to shape the structures of society to their continued advantage. It is class struggle. The only solution is to struggle back.

> the potential for change is rooted in organizing and class struggle

I don't think this is a useful way to view it. I would say the potential for change is in people shifting to a more long-term viewpoint instead of always chasing short-term gain and satisfaction.

> Regulatory capture just is the capitalist class organizing to shape the structures of society to their continued advantage.

If you don't think of yourself as a capitalist, you are dooming yourself to always be on the losing side of interactions with those that do. Particularly if they are predators.

Regulatory capture is just one way that predators use the system to their own advantage at the expense of everybody else. But not all capitalists are predators. The immense wealth our society has was built by people who were both capitalists and cooperators: wealth building is positive sum, the aggregation of win-win interactions over time. But sustaining wealth building requires taking a longer term view in order to preserve the social institutions and social trust that are necessary for it to happen. Unfortunately, the current trend is in the opposite direction.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#362

Post by anm89 »

sixothree wrote: post #111
anm89 wrote: post #60

Well labor absolutely despises tech's elite. So seems fair

The thing is they hadn't until recently. What do you think the change was?

I'm going to suggest that it wasn't human nature that changed. Ie, the elites are not better or worse today than they have ever been as human beings

My real answer is that 40 years of low interest rates, have shifted all power to capital (not capital as a group of human beings. to literal capital) and now the workers are mad at a system setup to screw them and scapegoating the people on the other side of that system who really aren't the ones who set this up either.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#363

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

hnfong wrote: post #319
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But CEOs don't actually have that much impact... So whatever decisions - in this example - Sundar makes, it only carries so much weight. And, you also get fired if you're a $500k engineer and you suck at your job. So I'm not sure what's so much different about Sundar - except that if he sucks at his job he has a way better golden parachute.

They do have impact if they're super competent or super incompetent.

Yeah - but most CEOs are super average.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#364

Post by unity1001 »

JumpinJack_Cash wrote: post #358
unity1001 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the religious talk? This sort of talk only happens in SF. Something being exploited in SF does not invalidate it. The last 20 years' of tech progress did create new paradigms. From search to social to Open Source. The last one even became a culture in which we are living today. People are so used to its paradigm that they think its 'normal' and not something different. The world of 90s was a totally different w…

> > The last 20 years' of tech progress did create new paradigms . The world today is totally different from how it was in 1990 I feel the opposite, if anything the rate of innovation is slowing down, and besides this sort of religious type words should not be used in the context of business. And if were to be used it should be reserved for something that really changes human life in a pivotal manner in the same way…

> I feel the opposite, if anything the rate of innovation is slowing down

Of course it is. The sector has been 'MBAified' after the first decade and a half. Its about extracting maximum value by providing the minimum. It happens to every sector - look at computer games. First decade is full of innovation and firsts. Then big corporations take over and consolidate the sector. Now its about milking what already existed by rehashing them.

> religious type words

They are not religious words. They are accurate words. Knowing the difference in between the attitudes in society and tech life are important in deciding what direction to go. Identifying destructive 'MBAification' (or whatever you may want to call it) of things as opposed to 'building' things and telling them apart is critical.

> I don't know what it could be that can be compared to fire and the wheel but Google and opensource isn't it

Wheel is exaggerated. People used other means before the wheel.

However Open Source is a major change in most attitudes. It even changed the hierarchical, feudal work relationships and organization that corporations inherited from early Victorian corporations. But that's a long topic that involves history and social sciences.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#365

Post by acchow »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #246
acchow wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe what you're describing is an anomaly from a decade+ of negative real interest rates due to quantitative easing. Getting rich while failing upwards in the future will be an exceptional rarity.

Real interest rates are lower today than they have been for the last few decades. 4.5% interest with 6.5% inflation is lower than anything we've had in the period of 1.5% - 2% inflation.

You are using backwards-looking inflation figures and comparing against forward yields. If you believe that the Feb 2024 price level will be 6.5% inflated compared to Feb 2023, then please go ahead and take that 4.5% loan. The rest of the market believes that inflation will continue to fall and infinite money has ended.

Basically, if you borrow at 4.5% today with the assumption that it is effectively a negative real rate, you will be pretty disappointed in a year.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#366

Post by speby »

habosa wrote: post #65

I think because individual tech workers are so highly paid relative to other industries, we fail to see how low our pay is relative to what the people at the top are making. A high performing Google engineer may make 500k+ in total comp, Sundar Pichai makes $100M+ in many years. That's 200x as much ... and the baseline is already super high. You see startup founders who exit with generational wealth (tens or hundreds…

I think your argument is advocating that the 'person who probably wrote half the damn code' should get a lot more, right? What should that person have gotten, exactly?

Either they did not negotiate for a better package with compensation and equity early on OR sadly, they joined too late. If they wanted a lot more equity (and therefore risk but also potential for a high return like Musk or Bezos or whatever), then they would have needed to join super early, or better yet, have been a co-founder to a Musk or a Bezos or whatever.

But they weren't, so no, they don't get anywhere near the sharing in the big reward, just a small or tiny slice.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#367

Post by danaris »

hangonhn wrote: post #218
strawpeople wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that management problems are harder to solve than coding problems. Not only that, but when coders make mistakes the impact can be large and the responsibility clearly falls on the coder, whereas when managers make mistakes, the responsibility is diffused to their subordinates. Managers should either be paid a lot less, or be fireable by their reports when they make mistakes.

> There is no evidence that management problems are harder to solve than coding problems. I think that's the sort of thinking some forms of schooling drill into our heads: harder problems = greater reward/value. That's not really how it is. We get rewarded for the value we supposedly generate by solving some problem or at least some portion of that value is rewarded to us. So if there are some low hanging fruits that…

> We get rewarded for the value we supposedly generate by solving some problem or at least some portion of that value is rewarded to us.

And that's the sort of thinking other forms of schooling drill into our heads: value generated ~= value compensated.

That's not really how it is. We get rewarded for the position we are at in the class hierarchy. If you're "in charge of" someone, you have to be making more money than them.

Is that how it should be? No. It's very much not. But it's largely how it is.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#368

Post by ch4s3 »

0x457 wrote: post #353
ch4s3 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? The end result in France is that the young are chronically unemployed to the tune of 20% and will never have the luxury of early retirement, all so the retirement age won't be raised now.

Silly that you just take a look at the recent events instead of things as whole. In France, I can go to lunch and not think about work. Here, I have to explain that "no, I won't eat lunch during this meaningless meeting to save time" every time I've invited to a meeting during lunch.

I wouldn't say that's representative of the US in general. I regularly take an hour for lunch. And, those benefits in France only apply to CDI employees if I'm not mistaken, and the percentage of employees who are CDD seem to be rising yoy while youth unemployment is also very high. It seems to be a lot easier to get onto the career ladder in the US.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#369

Post by VieEnCode »

habosa wrote: post #65

I think because individual tech workers are so highly paid relative to other industries, we fail to see how low our pay is relative to what the people at the top are making. A high performing Google engineer may make 500k+ in total comp, Sundar Pichai makes $100M+ in many years. That's 200x as much ... and the baseline is already super high. You see startup founders who exit with generational wealth (tens or hundreds…

Big law (at least outside of the US, in the UK/EU) is very much pyramid shaped. Typically the model is based on getting the maximum number of chargeable hours from the minimum number of associates, for a dim prospect of eventually making partner. The overwhelming majority of profits flow to partners at the top of the equity structure.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#370

Post by SergeAx »

habosa wrote: post #65

I think because individual tech workers are so highly paid relative to other industries, we fail to see how low our pay is relative to what the people at the top are making. A high performing Google engineer may make 500k+ in total comp, Sundar Pichai makes $100M+ in many years. That's 200x as much ... and the baseline is already super high. You see startup founders who exit with generational wealth (tens or hundreds…

At the same time, thousands of companies, where hundreds of thousands software engineers writing the damn code, going into oblivion, generating billions of dollars losses for their investors.

Writing the damn code is not a big deal. Knowing what to write is.

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