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Tech's Elite Hates Labor

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251–260 of 434 posts

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#251
post #65

I think because individual tech workers are so highly paid relative to other industries, we fail to see how low our pay is relative to what the people at the top are making. A high performing Google engineer may make 500k+ in total comp, Sundar Pichai makes $100M+ in many years. That's 200x as much ... and the baseline is already super high. You see startup founders who exit with generational wealth (tens or hundreds…

Nature abhors arbitrage. If you think the tech elite are somehow renting out ill gotten gains, the go out and eat their lunch.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that management problems are harder to solve than coding problems. Not only that, but when coders make mistakes the impact can be large and the responsibility clearly falls on the coder, whereas when managers make mistakes, the responsibility is diffused to their subordinates. Managers should either be paid a lot less, or be fireable by their reports when they make mistakes.

It has nothing to do with difficulty. It’s not a leveling up game of leetcode. > whereas when managers make mistakes, the responsibility is diffused to their subordinates. No it’s not. They will roast their subordinates but unless the org is completely dysfunctional they are responsible for the ultimate deliverables. The higher up you move, the more responsible for outcomes that are less and less in your control. You…

> It has nothing to do with difficulty. It’s not a leveling up game of leetcode.

Then you should reply to the parent comment and not mine.

> No it’s not. They will roast their subordinates but unless the org is completely dysfunctional they are responsible for the ultimate deliverables.

Please. If you’ve never seen incompetent managers bumbling along making their staff into scapegoats, etc., then you don’t have a lot of experience.

Nothing changes at the higher levels either. Projects are cancelled and teams fired etc, not the executive in charge. The time execs get fired is when they do deliver and there is some kind of liability.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#253
I hope this comes back to bite big tech in the ass. As far as I can see, the sequence of events were:

1. Employ a large number of tech workers and upskill them with state of the art practices.

2. Throw lots of money at them, so they can build nest-eggs

3. Test their capacity for - and self-confidence in - working long hours

4. Unload them onto a hot market; unemployment is at a 50-year low

My hope is that a million lifestyle LLCs will bloom from this fertile soil. I got laid off, and registered my first LLC while interviewing. I bet I'm not the only one

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#254
Why must your compensation be based on relative pay to the most highly paid in your company rather than what you are worth to the company and what the market for your labor will pay? The only rationale I see is jealousy which doesn't seem very noble or sustainable. Assume worker A gets paid $100k and his CEO gets paid 10x that. Worker B also gets 100k but her CEO gets paid 2x that. How is it fair to increase worker A's comp more than worker B based on that fact alone which worker A has no control over. Alternatively, lowering the CEO's comp only makes sense if it will lead to better returns for the company but if it results iin the good CEO leaving and a lower quality CEO replacement, the company may well perform poorly and than everyone suffers. I would say that jealousy is not a good basis for economic policy. A Company in the tech field needs flexibility to grow and shrink its labor force quickly to adapt as technologies come and go. Labor unions hamper growth which otherwise would benefits everyoe and siphon off money to unproductive and divisive union bureaucracies. particularly in the tech field where worker mobility is high I see little reason for unions.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the warehouses have organized, is there a union that represents all of these workers as a whole against leadership? Could it be an issue of scale? The Facebook cafeteria workers were able to organize, and that was about 500 workers. Engineers are in the tens of thousands at these big tech companies and without substantial laborer support from the beginning, any potential organizer is taking a huge risk by att…

Yes, and some of the Facebook cafeteria workers were getting up before 3 AM to make the commute in to Palo Alto, which meant that they had much more time in the mornings to think about organizing than the unfortunate techies who slept in. The excuses really are endless in this business.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here, I’m simply trying to understand what has previously stopped tech laborers from organizing. As a relatively new tech laborer, I would like to learn from these mistakes in order to actually organize and get our rights recognized.

Sounds like they had a great need to organize, and they were able to— I’m trying to extract patterns that could be applied to other organizations. Do you have any insights on that, or would you simply like to dunk on the out of touch techies that have it oh-so-good?

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other industries known for highly paid labor (finance, law, and medicine in the US) do not distribute rewards this way. Yes the people at the stop are still pulling in massive pay but there's a much stronger distribution of profits throughout the labor pyramid. This is wrong. Lawyers get paid worse than FAANG SWEs unless they make partnership, which is the equivalent to becoming a co-owner or working as a lower…

The difference is not as great in these other fields, but that's because the pyramid isn't as large. There's one person at the top of Alphabet, and tens of thousands of people below him. No law firm has as many people, by a long shot. And the medical analogy isn't right either. You have to look at the CEO of a pharma company, who probably does make a similar multiple to Sundar. But the person at the top also has a mu…

I know this is beside the point you're making, but that guy at the top does not have greater risk.

The right measure of risk isn't money, it's freedom. Work as CEO of Google or Roche for a month and you don't have to work any more. You don't risk shit, you can only win or win bigger.

This is what I don't understand. There are plenty of people who can run a business, so why is it that we pay so much for them? There's a massive queue of candidates who will all do a decent job (you won't know), so why are they paid astronomical sums? There's no way you can be sure a guy is not going to mess things up, and paying him a lot of money won't motivate him more, he's only got a 24h day. He can't go and be CEO elsewhere because he doesn't know other businesses that well, only a few places could logically use him. On top of that a huge proportion of the stock price is not in his hands.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#257
post #65

I think because individual tech workers are so highly paid relative to other industries, we fail to see how low our pay is relative to what the people at the top are making. A high performing Google engineer may make 500k+ in total comp, Sundar Pichai makes $100M+ in many years. That's 200x as much ... and the baseline is already super high. You see startup founders who exit with generational wealth (tens or hundreds…

I couldn't care enough about how much someone at the top makes, as long as I'm getting paid fairly for my work. Startups often use this argument in reverse ("we're a small company, we can't pay you as much") while paying their founders far, far more than 200X what they pay early engineers. I'm including equity grants in this calculation because you are, as well.

The problem is that by definition, if the CEO is making 100x what you do then you're not being paid fairly

Did you mean to say you just want to be paid modestly?

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that management problems are harder to solve than coding problems. Not only that, but when coders make mistakes the impact can be large and the responsibility clearly falls on the coder, whereas when managers make mistakes, the responsibility is diffused to their subordinates. Managers should either be paid a lot less, or be fireable by their reports when they make mistakes.

It has nothing to do with difficulty. It’s not a leveling up game of leetcode. > whereas when managers make mistakes, the responsibility is diffused to their subordinates. No it’s not. They will roast their subordinates but unless the org is completely dysfunctional they are responsible for the ultimate deliverables. The higher up you move, the more responsible for outcomes that are less and less in your control. You…

> ...unless the org is completely dysfunctional they are responsible for the ultimate deliverables.

This is true in theory if everyone has perfect knowledge. In practice I've never seen it play out. A large part of management is framing (i.e. playing off imperfect knowledge). It happens before and after success or failure is decided. Smart managers commit, but frame their responsibilities or outcomes in favorable terms. They find ways to de-risk. They publicly share risky deliverables with other teams or increase scope to push decision making up the ladder. They commit to only what their team can slam dunk. They make sure to only lead rockstar teams (this is huge). They cherry pick metrics to make failure look reasonable and success look incredible. They leave before major failures are realized or hand failures off before they sour. Remember: In large human systems, feedback cycles can easily take years.

It's a game and there's lots of clever ways to play. But the only way to lose is to publicly accept loss. When you do, it's very honorable and moving. But I've never seen the hit to perceived competency offset by perceived integrity. Because at the end of the day, companies make money. There's no company metric for honor. It's politics, whether we choose to see it or not doesn't really matter. For an extreme example, take a look at the presidency. Incumbent presidents lose in election year recessions. Period. Never mind most economic crises are a decade or so in the making.

People in aggregate are much simpler than we like to think. And so leadership is much more sleight of hand than our nobler ideals would have us believe.

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those guilds are incredibly hard to break into. They're also why Georgia has been able to mop up all of the non union work. For better or for worse, they do their job but out of state scabs are a huge problem keeping industry work in LA.

One wonders if this has something to do with managerial hate for remote work. If the boss wants to move his production from a high-age area to a lower-wage area, the workers can't do much about it if their mobility is limited. For film and tv, you need people on set, but if your job is a desk job that can be done from anywhere, and you can get work from anywhere, you get some of that control back.

[deleted]

Re: Tech's Elite Hates Labor

#260

For another perspective on high-skill labor organization, also based in California, for an industry that dominates the industry of its biggest city and is also one of our nation’s most lucrative industries, let’s look to Hollywood. The Hollywood guilds should be held up as a model for high skilled labor. It’s also something tech and (and especially the gaming industry) can learn from. The WGA, for example, allows the…

You do NOT want to point at entertainment industry as some sort of better meritocracy model. The ratio of nepotism hires and who-you-knowism in that industry is insane. There's a reason you have multi-generation families all "in the business". Met plenty of people in NYC in the industry, and they are either nepotism hires or surrounded by them.

I'm skeptical this could be worse than the tech industry.
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