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Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

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Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#91

This is the sort of thing that confounds me. It proports to be anti racist but it's the opposite, it treats minorities as a special lesser class that require protection from everyone else. It's the civil rights movement in reverse. It's already started bleeding into the workspace with mandatory training and verbiage that essentially says anything you do in your interactions with a minority if they accuse you of anyth…

> Another issue is that Asians while less in number than most other minorities are treated as white by DEI.

Asian kids stand to be hurt the most by this. They want asian kids to view themselves as oppressed minorities (e.g. the California ethnic studies curriculum). They make thinly veiled accusations that our cultural traits (keeping our heads down and not complaining) is an effort to uphold white supremacy. But when the chips are down, they’ll categorize Asians as “white.”

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#92
This is the third or fourth front-page article on this topic in the last few days. I'm skeptical of basically everything about academic hiring, DEI included. But there's a concerted media blitz on this topic and the lack of quality conversation on HN reflects that the propaganda campaign is working.

Here's some nuance that I hope cuts through the mass media narrative-building machine:

First, it's not just stupid ideology. There are real economic incentives at play. I wrote a comment here on why Colleges and Universities view DEI as existentially important to their finances: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34672053

Second, value statements are nothing new in Academia. Many religious institutions require Faith Statements, and there are event Title IX carve-outs for these institutions when they receive federal funds [2]

Third, DEI statements are not all bad. Eg, when I applied to academic positions (none of which I took), my statement had everything to do with serving kids who arrived at college unprepared. Not a single mention or race, gender, etc. Instead of talking about starting "women in X" clubs or other BS [3], I talked about volunteering in public schools and gave anecdotes about how in my teaching I worked to keep kids in college who would've otherwise dropped out. Every place I applied said it was one of the best DEI statements they had seen.

My personal opinion: I am fully aligned with the criticism of DEI statements. Most DEI statements are cringe-worthy at best, I have no doubt in the heights of incompetence that can be found in university administration, and the entire uni hiring process is broken. But these statements can be used in a reasonable and responsible way at colleges who, in order to survive financially, NEED to start recruiting and retaining students who aren't in the "dual income upper-middle class parents with a 3.8GPA" mold. And, as an aside, if we're going to go after Loyalty Oaths in non-public-university academic hiring, let's start by eliminating Title IX carve-outs for religiously affiliated institutions.

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[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34672053

[2] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-34/subtitle-B/chapter-I/p...

[3] BS because they are often the sort of "I started/joined a club" thing that for most people amounts to zero actual effort put into helping individual students succeed.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I worry about my kids if this keeps escalating. I dislike Desantis for many reasons but ended up voting for him specifically for this reason and a couple of other cultural issues. Considering the book banning he just enacted this seems like an extremely short sighted and poorly thought out reasoning.

Banning books from public school libraries has nearly zero effect on what students are exposed to. Did you ever check out a book from the school library? I never did, the actual municipal library had a much better selection. Harry Potter was banned from plenty of libraries for witchcraft, and it's sales demonstrate how futile it was.

I read dozens (possibly hundreds?) of books in my school library as a student. We're not just talking about "the library" either. We're talking about the books that are made available to students during classroom free time in elementary school.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#94

This is such a "ugh" topic. Of course it's kind of absurd to be like "Write me an essay on how Woke you are", but it's the inevitable result of pretty low quality individuals trying to solve a real problem. Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory, and due to the massive problems with the structure of US universities it still has all sorts of problems. The way to fix that is obviously to bring in senio…

>The way to fix that is obviously to bring in senior leadership

No. No, my goodness no.

The way to fix that isn't to continue to expand an already bloated bureaucracy that is uninterested in actual intellectual development. The way to fix it is to blow up the university system itself in this country.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#95
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are absolutely outstanding in your field you should always prevail. Also, if you didn't know, hiring candidates based on race is explicitly forbidden by federal law (Title VII Civil Rights Act of 1964). The fuss is absolutely not overblown.

they're not hiring based on race, they're hiring based on the way they score a statement about one's commitment to, history with, and future plans for advancing diversity, equity and inclusion in the university setting. you can be black and have a terrible dei statement. it just happens that minorities are more likely to have had involvement with these issues for most of their academic lives.

If the scoring on the DEI statement is correlated to race of the applicant, and I would bet every dollar I have that it is, then it is considered de facto racial discrimination by law. Google "disparate impact." Same issue as Harvard giving low "personality scores" to the Asian applicants. You can't get around anti-discrimination laws that easily.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#96

This is the sort of thing that confounds me. It proports to be anti racist but it's the opposite, it treats minorities as a special lesser class that require protection from everyone else. It's the civil rights movement in reverse. It's already started bleeding into the workspace with mandatory training and verbiage that essentially says anything you do in your interactions with a minority if they accuse you of anyth…

> It's the civil rights movement in reverse. Is it? Here's what MLK has written: > “Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic.” > “A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of…

One crucial detail to note with the research showing diversity improves company performance: Asians were categorized as diverse in these studies. But in all the DEI initiatives I've seen, Asians were either non-diverse and in some they were "negative diversity" and treated even worse than whites. So there's a mismatched between the definitions of diversity used in research and used in DEI discrimination.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He banned books? They are illegal to possess in the state? Or did he just have certain books removed from the curriculum or deemed inappropriate to teach in school? One is a serious accusation, the other is something that's done every day. You see a lot of copies of Mein Kampf in elementary school libraries? How about playboy magazines? Schools are always reevaluating what they deem appropriate, let's not blow it out…

[dead]

"no books at all" is a result of them voluntarily making things worse to try to win political points. That's not what any law required.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People share these values. The most dangerous unforced error is to fool oneself that true-believers don't exist. Deciding the because one must be forced to believe universalizes into other's being forced to believe is an empathy gap. If you wish to understand how how these ideas take root, don't fall into the "enemy is strong and weak" trap. Deciding that oneself believes because principles but others believe because…

There are certainly a lot of true believers. And intellectuals often reflect future changes in society, but I think the ship for DEI has sailed as the ideas from its opposition are on the table as well. Even if inertia creates new initiatives today and tomorrow. And the alternative ideas are more popular among intellectuals. Maybe not academics, but intellectuals.

It might help to speak of the specific alternatives created as a response to DEI. Would you care to share?

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#99

Begun, the culture war has (on HN)

It almost seems inevitable at times. DEI is part of that and has leaked into tech (yea, you can say its been there awhile but eh).

I know of someone that has actually lost a job opportunity because they weren't diverse enough. (SE Asian) They were interning and it leaked that the team lead wanted someone more diverse and the HM was all too eager to agree. The messages were deleted before he could take a screen shot. He came to me asking what to do about it and I really didn't know what to say. Unfortunately it just wasn't worth it IMO to fight a large tech company. I'm sure the messages could be recovered but it seemed like an insane uphill fight and who would want to even work at that company at that point.

Hell, companies are "proud" to tell you that they would straight up do this too. The worst people imo are the types that try to make every justification and gaslight you into believing its "justice" or something.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#100

This is such a "ugh" topic. Of course it's kind of absurd to be like "Write me an essay on how Woke you are", but it's the inevitable result of pretty low quality individuals trying to solve a real problem. Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory, and due to the massive problems with the structure of US universities it still has all sorts of problems. The way to fix that is obviously to bring in senio…

The issue with DEI is that it tries to addresses discrimination with MORE discrimination

While some DEI policies are arguably discriminatory, many are not.

If you know that the general population is 20% race A, 10% race B, 30% race C, and yet your admissions are only pulling in 40% race C, 5% race B and 55% race A, you know something is wrong. Policies designed to keep your admissions closer to the general population would not count as discrimination because if everything is functioning correctly your distribution is going to at least resemble the gen pop distribution. Obviously it will never be a perfect fit, because various factors like location, education etc will influence your hiring pool.

A lot of people insist that trying to get your metrics to match reality is discrimination because they think it means someone who "doesn't deserve it" will get hired instead of them. The reality is that a biased pipeline might exclude you too, regardless of your gender or skin color, because a biased pipeline is probably filled with things like nepotism, people blackballing candidates off of Vibes(tm), hiring based on appearance, etc. For every time biased hiring benefits you, it probably hurt you 3 times and you might not have noticed.

The reality is that if you look at the raw DEI metrics for most large corporations they do not even vaguely resemble the general population. There's no rational excuse for that, you have to do something.

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