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Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

economist.com

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Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#21

Post by sokoloff »

shadowgovt wrote: post #5

> Professor Halley believes these innovations are “forced speech and viewpoint discrimination in the First Amendment context” That's an interesting viewpoint and I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. After all, they're at liberty to grant tenure to whomever they think is worthy of it, by their own criteria. If they think that a tenured physics professor's vie…

This doesn't seem like forced speech at all. Having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance (as I did, or felt like I did) is forced speech. Asking a question as part of an application isn't forcing any specific speech in response.

"I think many DEI initiatives are treating a symptom of a genuine problem in society and think that striving to treat every individual in a fair manner and ensuring they feel included in my lab is the best way to ensure that all individuals can best succeed and best contribute to society." is an answer a candidate could freely speak/write.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#22

Post by catiopatio »

shadowgovt wrote: post #12
hguant wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. The short answer from the courts is - if you take money from the federal government, in any way, or have students who take money from the federal government, in any way, or distribute funds from the federal government, in any way, as a corporate entity you lose out on many of the rights entailed to a private citizen.

No doubt, but I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." If anything, government money tends to include more diversity entanglements, not fewer.

> I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements."

The first amendment, as originally noted.

This is most relevant at public universities, which effectively are the government.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#23

Post by pookha »

shadowgovt wrote: post #12
hguant wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. The short answer from the courts is - if you take money from the federal government, in any way, or have students who take money from the federal government, in any way, or distribute funds from the federal government, in any way, as a corporate entity you lose out on many of the rights entailed to a private citizen.

No doubt, but I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." If anything, government money tends to include more diversity entanglements, not fewer.

Hard for Europeans and some Americans to comprehend this but the US Constitution restricts the government not the other way. The Bill of Rights is meant to protect natural human rights from government systems. US funded academics are bound by it so I suspect these schools would loose in court. And I work for a government research lab and this nonsense is foreign to me.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#24

Post by colpabar »

onepointsixC wrote: post #6
raxxorraxor wrote: post #2

I still don't understand how anyone can find such rules attractive. This is as strict as the catholic church. In the private sector it tells me that a company values show much more than their employees, which probably are treated badly and have to work in an extremely strict environment. If you have to say it... People that honestly fall for such statements are too naive to really fill out any leadership position in…

Academia is such a brutal cutthroat battle for faculty positions, you have zero choice but to participate. An acquaintance was applying for faculty positions and every single position they were applying to required a DEI statement. It's only a matter of time till it starts bubbling out of academia to industry.

It's only a matter of time until it's required by law to be employed, which is pretty fucked up when you remember that health insurance is so closely tied to employment, in america at least.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#25

Post by adamsmith143 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #5

> Professor Halley believes these innovations are “forced speech and viewpoint discrimination in the First Amendment context” That's an interesting viewpoint and I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. After all, they're at liberty to grant tenure to whomever they think is worthy of it, by their own criteria. If they think that a tenured physics professor's vie…

I think we'll find a pendulum effect where schools that lean far into DEI are going to lose out on top students, grants, researchers, etc. They'll have to readjust and swing back into pedagogy because it will be very clear that if e.g. UC Berkeley is training students in DEI and not as much focus is spent on the actual subject matter their students won't start great companies, they won't get PhD's at other top schools, they won't win Nobel Prizes, etc. It's a guaranteed death spiral for them. Meanwhile somewhere like University of Chicago which has made great strides to protect free speech and explicitly prohibits Diversity statements, will likely continue to put out excellent students and research.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#26

Post by efficax »

DEI statements are just one factor in the hiring process for faculty. Generally they'll get scored by the hiring committee on some numeric scale (like everything else in the application). A low DEI score might not tank your application if you're in a field where everyone else has a low DEI score, or if you are absolutely outstanding in your field but have middling DEI because you're a white, male scientist from an affluent background who hasn't done much in that sense, you might still prevail. But it's a way of allowing the hiring committee to factor in diversity so that other things being equal (equal experience, equal credentials, equal letters of rec, teaching demo, etc) they can use diversity to distinguish candidates. The fuss about it is overblown.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#27

Post by throwawaysleep »

onepointsixC wrote: post #6
raxxorraxor wrote: post #2

I still don't understand how anyone can find such rules attractive. This is as strict as the catholic church. In the private sector it tells me that a company values show much more than their employees, which probably are treated badly and have to work in an extremely strict environment. If you have to say it... People that honestly fall for such statements are too naive to really fill out any leadership position in…

Academia is such a brutal cutthroat battle for faculty positions, you have zero choice but to participate. An acquaintance was applying for faculty positions and every single position they were applying to required a DEI statement. It's only a matter of time till it starts bubbling out of academia to industry.

Just lie about it when it does.

Nobody verifies my impressive resume claims. Just my employment dates and degrees, if even those.

So claim you ran a workshop for transgender black women. Nobody is going to dig deep enough in most cases to know if it is true.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#28

Post by raxxorraxor »

onepointsixC wrote: post #6
raxxorraxor wrote: post #2

I still don't understand how anyone can find such rules attractive. This is as strict as the catholic church. In the private sector it tells me that a company values show much more than their employees, which probably are treated badly and have to work in an extremely strict environment. If you have to say it... People that honestly fall for such statements are too naive to really fill out any leadership position in…

Academia is such a brutal cutthroat battle for faculty positions, you have zero choice but to participate. An acquaintance was applying for faculty positions and every single position they were applying to required a DEI statement. It's only a matter of time till it starts bubbling out of academia to industry.

I think the artificial rules will increase, but the authority of academia as a whole will suffer from those that come out on top here. I think the progress already started when education become a very expensive product instead of a privilege.

Academia does have to find a new place since the logistics of information and knowledge transferal became very cheap. You can acquire a lot of knowledge in today's world without a formal education. Not comparable to having a mentor, but neither is true for students in university.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#29

Post by onepointsixC »

FormerBandmate wrote: post #16
onepointsixC wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academia is such a brutal cutthroat battle for faculty positions, you have zero choice but to participate. An acquaintance was applying for faculty positions and every single position they were applying to required a DEI statement. It's only a matter of time till it starts bubbling out of academia to industry.

> It's only a matter of time till it starts bubbling out of academia to industry Hard disagree. This is the type of thing only colleges do, it’s the equivalent of an essay and also displays how different academia is from the professional world. No one cares about publications in industry, and people buy into this stuff much less sincerely than in academia

This absolutely will leak into MBA programs and become "best practice".

You don't want to hire a racist now, do you? No? Good, so mandatory DEI pledges for all!

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#30

Post by wonderwonder »

This is the sort of thing that confounds me. It proports to be anti racist but it's the opposite, it treats minorities as a special lesser class that require protection from everyone else. It's the civil rights movement in reverse.

It's already started bleeding into the workspace with mandatory training and verbiage that essentially says anything you do in your interactions with a minority if they accuse you of anything they are right and you must meekly accept it and bow your head in shame.

The worst part of it is at most of the companies with strong DEI programs there are zero minorities in leadership. it's a dog and pony show that is only forced upon the non sr. leadership.

You even have companies doing layoffs now intentionally focused on laying off non minorities.

Another issue is that Asians while less in number than most other minorities are treated as white by DEI.

I worry about my kids if this keeps escalating. I dislike Desantis for many reasons but ended up voting for him specifically for this reason and a couple of other cultural issues.

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