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HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

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Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#111

Post by gadders »

jesterson wrote: post #105
fogforthought93 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for the claim that drug cartels "try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through"? I don't believe that's how it works at all. If you read, for example Drug Cartels Do Not Exist by Oswaldo Zavala, you'll see that this money is fundamental to how global finance operates. Drug money provided the necessary liquidity to keep the world finance system from crashing in '08. It's the m…

Not sure what source you do expect to hear. wouldn't delve into it any further, but it is so, from firsthand source. When you move this kind of money, you don't just go to branch and ask "to speak to someone". Usually you know someone from bank who can arrange that's needed. And they know. And you know they know. And they know you know they know. So usually it's very clear. There is no ethical concerns at this money…

>>When you move this kind of money, you don't just go to branch and ask "to speak to someone". Usually you know someone from bank who can arrange that's needed.

That's probably true as well. Someone hears someone say in bar that their controls are lax, or someone in a bank is coerced into helping a cartel etc.

And don't get me wrong - this is still Very Bad that this happened, but it happened due to control and process cock-ups, not as a conscious desire to pursue a new business opportunity.

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#112

Post by diordiderot »

abduhl wrote: post #99
justinclift wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often times, the crime that's committed is because the boss told them to do it, then threatened the engineer when they initially said No.

Yes well that’s how a lot of crime happens. We don’t avoid prosecuting a triggerman, carjacker, or bank robber just because they got the order and were threatened for not complying. Even the Eichmanns that were just following orders went to Nuremberg.

> We don’t avoid prosecuting a triggerman, carjacker, or bank robber

Well we do give them massively commuted sentences for cooperating

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#113

Post by AbrahamParangi »

snozolli wrote: post #94
olalonde wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's completely unreasonable. The probability of any Fortune 500 CEO going to prison would basically be 100%. Should the US president go to prison whenever a government employee commits a crime as well?

The President isn't the CEO of America, Inc., and American government isn't a monolithic organization. However, yes, if sufficiently illegal activities were going on within the President's cabinet, then yes, send the President to prison. As for any Fortune 500 CEO going to prison, well, that risk would certainly incentivize the pursuit of good behavior from the top down, wouldn't it?

At some point it just makes the entire system untenable. Do you think, in such a world, you would ever hire anyone that you didn’t trust with your life?

In fact, you probably wouldn’t even hire anyone that wasn’t related to you.

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#114

Post by boring_twenties »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #108
AlbertCory wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of us are script kiddies in this game. My bet is, the real cartels have moved way beyond anything that any of us knows about. Art, jewels, shell companies, real estate... the list of possibilities goes on. That said; banks have to report any transaction that's large ($10,000 is it?), no matter to whom. I'd add "even if it's a gift" although I only suspect that's true.

There is always the old trick of just depositing the cash into safe deposit boxes - all the protection of a bank with none of the reporting. Works best if the bank is more then thirty miles from your home and business.

> safe deposit boxes - all the protection of a bank

Nope: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34266095

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#115

Post by fogforthought93 »

jesterson wrote: post #105
fogforthought93 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for the claim that drug cartels "try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through"? I don't believe that's how it works at all. If you read, for example Drug Cartels Do Not Exist by Oswaldo Zavala, you'll see that this money is fundamental to how global finance operates. Drug money provided the necessary liquidity to keep the world finance system from crashing in '08. It's the m…

Not sure what source you do expect to hear. wouldn't delve into it any further, but it is so, from firsthand source. When you move this kind of money, you don't just go to branch and ask "to speak to someone". Usually you know someone from bank who can arrange that's needed. And they know. And you know they know. And they know you know they know. So usually it's very clear. There is no ethical concerns at this money…

I'm not actually expecting a source—it was a polite way of saying that person has no idea what they're talking about.

Your description is in line with what I've read—there's hardly a smoking gun, scruples are almost totally absent, this is very serious business.

The risk is spread throughout the entire milieu of bankers, central bankers, cartel heads, cartel lawyers, etc. A similar model to the revolving door in DC. Capitalism itself tends toward cartelization, which is what allows the power elite to move freely about in a mutually assured destruction kind of way. If everyone is guilty, no one is guilty and we're in a pact to maintain that.

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#116

Post by fogforthought93 »

gadders wrote: post #111
jesterson wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what source you do expect to hear. wouldn't delve into it any further, but it is so, from firsthand source. When you move this kind of money, you don't just go to branch and ask "to speak to someone". Usually you know someone from bank who can arrange that's needed. And they know. And you know they know. And they know you know they know. So usually it's very clear. There is no ethical concerns at this money…

>>When you move this kind of money, you don't just go to branch and ask "to speak to someone". Usually you know someone from bank who can arrange that's needed. That's probably true as well. Someone hears someone say in bar that their controls are lax, or someone in a bank is coerced into helping a cartel etc. And don't get me wrong - this is still Very Bad that this happened, but it happened due to control and proce…

No, it's far too risky and stochastic to rely on overheard bar convos for this kind of thing. To do this kind of large-scale fraud you need to be built into the system, you need reliable methods, backstops, entire plans for fall guys and controlled demolition of your schemes.

Ask yourself what certainties you, yourself, would want if you decided to use your job to conduct significant fraud. Then imagine you could get all of them because you're an insider to the system, you can write the laws, pay off the right officials, blackmail the lowly functionaries, etc.

It's not a new business opportunity—HSBC was founded to finance the Opium Wars in China! They know how to do this. The real question is why let us see, why let something like this become public news. As always, the answer can be found by starting with the question, Who benefits? and then following the money from there.

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#117

Post by fogforthought93 »

gadders wrote: post #109
fogforthought93 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for the claim that drug cartels "try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through"? I don't believe that's how it works at all. If you read, for example Drug Cartels Do Not Exist by Oswaldo Zavala, you'll see that this money is fundamental to how global finance operates. Drug money provided the necessary liquidity to keep the world finance system from crashing in '08. It's the m…

So in your mental model of how this works, Pablo Escobar (or whoever) rings up the CEO of multinational banks and says "I've got a business proposition for you."?

No, this is not new. This is one of the oldest games there is, so it's more like grooming young lawyers/bankers to step into a role, a type, that's existed for hundreds of years. You have a pipeline of strivers to choose from, you have ultimate leverage over them. You force their hand.

Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)

#118

Post by abduhl »

diordiderot wrote: post #112
abduhl wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes well that’s how a lot of crime happens. We don’t avoid prosecuting a triggerman, carjacker, or bank robber just because they got the order and were threatened for not complying. Even the Eichmanns that were just following orders went to Nuremberg.

> We don’t avoid prosecuting a triggerman, carjacker, or bank robber Well we do give them massively commuted sentences for cooperating

But we still require them to cooperate and take responsibility instead of what most software engineers try to do which is blame management (like the prior poster I was replying to).
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