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Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

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Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#141
The forums in which I've seen this most notably were Usenet (to an extent) and Google+.

I've tried to put my finger on what made certain G+ discussions just tick, and it's complex and subtle.

Much of it came down to having a good host for the discussion, and among the best was the site's chief architect, Yonatan Zunger. He was well-connected within G+ and at Google (obviously), but also had a diverse set of interests, tolerated a wide range of opinion and interactions, but not without limits. (Similar in many regards to HN's moderation philosophy.)

Threads were anchored by the initial post or link, and Yonatan often wrote a fairly substantial piece himself, rather than just throwing up links or a brief tweet-length bit.

Discussions were limited in how many comments could be appended, I believe the limit was 500. Presentation was unthreaded flat, with most recent comments at the end of the thread ... but that was also what was presented by default (the full thread could be expanded if desired).

And "recent" participants (I believe this was the most recent 100 comments, could have been more) would get a notification if there were new comments. This could (and did) occur even years after the initial post, and occasionally old posts would come back to life.

Participants would receive a notification, and could view and respond to recent comments within the Notifications pane itself, rather than having to separately go to the post itself. This is unlike many other systems I've seen, including Diaspora*, which is otherwise quite similar but has a very cumbersome (and slow) notifications -> posts interaction.

Key to keeping this from becoming a magnet for spam or tedious arguments was the fact that the host could moderate (and remove) low-value, distracting, or inappropriate replies. Doing so would effectively remove notifications generated by such comments. Again, Yonatan was diligent in this --- over several years I saw a very small handful of low-value responses, and usually they had been removed in the few seconds between my own seeing them and writing Yonatan to alert him of something untoward.

The other element driving this was an effective search tool. G+ went through numerous iterations, some lacking search entirely and some with a very half-assed search, but for its final few years, there was actually an effective and useful search which could turn up interesting prior discussions. (Search is another feature Diaspora* is entirely lacking.)

As regards HN, several elements that made G+ so vibrant in this regard are lacking. There are no notifications, individual members don't host threads in the same way as G+ did, S/N is worse than G+ at its best (and that was by no means the typical experience).

For HN, the best way to resurrect an old thread is probably to either link it (or a comment) directly, or to re-share the original article/URL and reference earlier discussion. That would have to be more than just the "previous discussion" comments which are typically made.

I'll often reference my own earlier comments (or occasionally posts elsewhere) in responses, and have a few bugbears I'll raise again. (Those ... risk becoming tedious, I try to be mindful of that.)

There are a few themes I've raised multiple times and developed somewhat in the course of multiple discussions, two examples that come to mind are the prospect of trans-oceanic trains (using submerged floating tunnels), and the possibility of a tax- or ISP-brokered scheme of universal content syndication as an alternative to subscriptions and ad-supported media, both of which I've developed over several years.

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#142

When I read some of the suggestions here in these comments, some of them exist already in Reddit. Now at the risk of getting downvoted, my experience is that Reddit is awful: spiteful posts, tons of short sentence replies that litter the eyes, circular meme-like self-referential wink-wink behavior (i.e. repeating the same joke with slight modification). There are some thoughtful subs (star something codex) but overal…

I stopped using Reddit over a year ago and found a couple of traditional forums to replace it with. Sure I don’t have enough discussion to soak up hours of my day but in turn I’ve just started reading more books. My mental health has greatly improved.

I was there with, what, 1M+ karma and one night, when I realized I was arguing with an immature teenager I realized how much this impacts me.

I deleted the account immediately and never regretted it once. I recreated a new ne to engage in purely technical discussions.

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#143

I understand the sentiment also. It's the flip side of high-quality focused attention on the topic of the day: The resurrection of our high-quality focused attention on the topic of yore. Past HN threads on evergreen topics do have a very long tail. I'm still getting inquiries in my area of expertise* about items I posted on HN 5 years ago. I really appreciate this and my inquirers do too. H/T to dang for curating al…

Hi Mary! Good to see you active here. You're website has been a huge help for me, thanks for sharing the right information

Ravagat you're most welcome! I'm so happy this helped you. Guess what, the first MVP's launching this month, it's a template. All the free info will remain too, with more added.

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#145
post #117

Something that seems kinda unique to this community and the moderation is allowing and encouraging things to be posted again. A lot of projects get posted and there's a reply that mentions the 2 or 3 other times in the past it was posted, with links to the comments. I thinks that's one way to deal with longer term topics and updates--allow reposts over time and new discussion, with links to the past discussions if fo…

Thanks, that's helpful. The one missing piece is a good way of threading the beads together. I do this informally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... , but that's all just prep for one day fitting it nicely into the software.

It's super tricky because how do you decide what constitutes a 'topic'?

For example, are all the various ChatGPT threads related? What about coverage of an event (e.g. there are six or seven threads regarding the recent earthquake in Turkiye—all empty apart from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34672314 —however I've seen it where basically the same story is being carried across several outlets and discussions are on the same topics, just one post gets more traction than the other).

It's easy enough to link articles which refer to the same exact source and mark duplicates, but harder to link posts which rely on different sources to cover the exact same topic.

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be true. But I think the greater value of HN is in fact the community: the set of people who use it and the norms that have emerged, more than the features. I think encouraging more "slow" conversation would improve this community, and it would not be too risky to test out more default comments notification. I use HN replies (and RSS)... but very few others do, so the the change of getting a reply to this co…

Hi! I don't use HN replies, but I do go back and check my less-than-day-old comments. When I say a system, I'm including everything, including the community. It's not any one part of HN, it's the way all the parts interact. Seemingly small changes can have a dramatic impact on the way the system operates, which includes the community. Suddenly different voices become amplified while others feel marginalized, and it's…

Nice, thanks for the reply! I agree - I'm also very sympathetic to that. In this case, I think it is an example of a feature worth experimenting with, even if slowly. I would love to have more slow threads like this one.

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#147
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that's helpful. The one missing piece is a good way of threading the beads together. I do this informally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... , but that's all just prep for one day fitting it nicely into the software.

It's super tricky because how do you decide what constitutes a 'topic'? For example, are all the various ChatGPT threads related? What about coverage of an event (e.g. there are six or seven threads regarding the recent earthquake in Turkiye—all empty apart from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34672314 —however I've seen it where basically the same story is being carried across several outlets and discussions ar…

I agree!

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#148
If you have NNTP, then that will help. You can read/write any message. There is not voting, but to me that is an advantage to not have voting; I think chronological will be better. Also if you have NNTP, you can more easily to compose and read already downloaded messages even if you are not connected to the internet (or if the server is down), only needing internet to send/receive. Scoring files can be used if you want to customize which messages should be displayed, and possibly other things if you use a client program that can use scoring files for other purposes. Another idea is global scoring files that can be optionally installed if the user intends to do, maybe. A protocol extension for search could be used if it is desirable to be able to search, maybe.

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#149

> But I wonder if others would also be interested in longer term discussions, Bots already pretty much dominate platforms like Twitter and Reddit, although I would point out the structured nature of Reddit makes it an ideal public resource AI training dataset. Saying that, I like your idea because these new LLM's like ChatGPT v3 need to be able to debate which is something that has largely been shutdown online includ…

I have to ask: have we ever met?

Re: Ask HN: Longer Discussions in HN?

#150
post #118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that was great and I added it to the highlights list at the time. That's a list we keep of particularly good or cool comments - we used to publish them periodically ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ) but it was too much work. Anyone who wants to can see the list: https://news.ycombinator.com/highlights . It's just a handful and tons more are out there, so if anyone finds a post…

Would you please add https://news.ycombinator.com/highlights to https://news.ycombinator.com/lists so it's easy to find in future? Thank you for all you do, dang.

Belatedly added!
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