> If you're actually a diverse company, then people will notice.
Yep. But the damage has already been done.
At least you have a voice. I recommend using it to change what bothers you.
Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#32Become a founder. You might benefit from some early advantages raising seed money or getting picked for an incubator, but probably not appreciably more than founders like Gates or Zuckerberg from well connected families and communities. And past that first step if you succeed it’s going to be because you made it succeed. And if you somehow end up founding the affirmative action unicorn because private equity gives you an undeserved valuation on the basis of your race, well so long as you don’t sell your soul you may as well enjoy the ride.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#33>but creating townhall meetings and parading your black/brown employees around like show ponies is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling.
It doesn't just undermine the self-esteem of a PoC, it undermines the self-esteem of white folks, too. Hiring or promoting people due to their skin color is just wrong, no matter what skin color that is. As a white dude, seeing my PoC teammates in the past celebrated not for their accomplishments, but for something they had no control over (their skin color) is sad.
"John in Engineering is really talented, and works his tail off daily. He has come up with some really ingenious solutions to tough problems that have allowed us to grow as a company....but we're celebrating him because he's black, not because he's a kickass engineer". Seen things like this before, which make no sense. Celebrating an employee who is awesome at their job for being awesome at their job is great. You're a company, after all, not a social club. The goal is to grow and make money. Celebrate anyone who can do help with that, regardless if they are black, white, yellow, orange, green, pink, whatever.
Diversity is cool, but when it's put into practice and not shouted from the rooftops, it's even better.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#34Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.
This is a complicated question, but at least one aspect of it is that American culture has always had an incredibly difficult time admitting there is such a thing as social and economic class division and confronting it head on.
At least some of this is probably cultural, it's part of our foundational myth that we broke the rigid class structures of the old world countries and we want to believe that is true. There is of course at least some kernel of truth to it, in some sense, for some kinds of people, historically speaking.
The other reason is that there has been a multi-generational extremely well funded initiative to cultivate media and public opinion against the idea. It's everywhere and is the basis of much of the "culture war" signaling we see around us. Examples include the idea that driving a pickup truck or avoiding lattes is some kind of meaningful class marker, rather than things like who owns and controls the capital of this country.
That effort has been highly effective, in part because it's been well executed and in part because of the total collapse of the concept of a labor party in this country, leaving us with two parties ruled by different professional classes.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#35> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…
This take is radically wrong, and you're just reinforcing OP's insecurities. How do you know that OP has a job at the expense of a white person? How do you know that OP isn't in fact the best candidate for the job? You're making a whole lot of assumptions here that are bordering on outright racism
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#36> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…
I’m as anti-woke as they come, but whoa.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#37its probably a deliberate strategy in order to make you feel that you haven't earned your position but rather you are beholden to the people that gave it to you
that assumes competency of someone to have a real strategy and then competency to conceal it because it is a timebomb waiting to explode.
Too complicated ;).
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#38I’ve no evidence to support this, but I strongly suspect these kind of dog-and-pony shows are a result of there simply not being enough black voices. White people want to be inclusive but they consistently fail to understand what black people actually want out of DEI… because they’re not consulting enough (or any) black people. The best thing you can do is speak up and make sure your opinion is heard in a way that is…
> because they’re not consulting enough (or any) black people They are, problem is those black women they consult are mostly DEI people. Who are very different from the actual worker.
I would include that under “not consulting enough black people” but you make an important clarification & I agree with you.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#39Interestingly enough, Pew Research ran a study[0] a few years back which found that the majority of whites, blacks, and Hispanics reject race-conscious hiring—even if it results in less diversity.
I can only imagine what it would feel like to be a PoC in a company that has openly stated that their goal is to achieve a certain racial/ethnic composition regardless of standards. How would I not always have a sneaking suspicion that I was hired to fulfill some quota rather than on my own merits? Worse, I would feel that all of my colleagues are looking at me and wondering the same thing.
Excuse the cynicism, but I think the reason these companies have to shout about their DEI initiatives from the rooftops is because they care less about diversity and helping disadvantaged groups and more about signalling their virtue to the rest of the world.
[0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/america...
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#40I wish there were an HR "brand" for "We want the absolute best team possible, with diversity of thought and experience, and aligned on our mission and core values. We recognize lots of people are excluded because they're not part of our existing networks, or because they don't think they belong here, so we'll put extra effort into looking for them and showing them what's possible, but we've got the same standards for everyone we bring in, and will always pick the people who make our team the best. This might not always be the best individuals at their specialties in isolation, but the people who will work the best together to achieve our mission. This isn't a single-round game, so we do value long-term evolution of our company, the industry, our country, and humanity overall, but if we aren't successful in the short term, we won't be at the table to make positive changes over time, either. We have minimum moral, ethical, and legal obligations in how we treat people which we will always meet (and hopefully far exceed), but the minimums are not our targets."