Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn • Hacker News Board

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#21

Post by Rebelgecko » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 1:47 AM UTC

ojintoad wrote: post #6

This is a really interesting article that not only gives insight into how Duolingo works technically but also maybe how Duolingo works as an organization culturally. The most recent changes to UI reduced user choice on what to learn and practice significantly. Some of it is being repaired, but if you are continuing to use Duolingo you are deferring to its algorithm significantly on how you should learn. This is proba…

The CEO of Duolingo has gone on their subreddit and been super insistent about how the redesign is amazing because they have AB test results to prove it.

Complaining directly is useless in the face of a rigid data driven approach (assuming the correct data is even being gathered), so I've decided to vote with my feet and hit em in the OKRs by switching to another app. I've been using Lingodeer

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#22

Post by voisin » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 1:47 AM UTC

syrrim wrote: post #16

The article reads like ad copy. Not surprising given the author. My working assumption is that duolingo's goal is to keep you using the app, and only ever teaches you a language coincidentally. It attempts to make you feel like you're adept at the language to keep you motivated. This is accomplished by teaching you a restricted subset of the language that you can become skilled at, but isn't necessarily sufficient in…

> My working assumption is that duolingo's goal is to keep you using the app, and only ever teaches you a language coincidentally.

For what purpose? You either subscribe or you don’t, and once you subscribe you’d think they would want to show you real results so you continue to subscribe. If it was just shallow learning then they would lose subscribers over time once people wised up to this, but that doesn’t seem to be happening. It seems incentives are aligned to actually learn! How do you monetize what you are saying?

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#23

Post by salusinarduis » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

Students waste a tremendous amount of time learning these things which could be better spent elsewhere.

What if what humanity needs to realize is that language learning is a waste of time, unless you are studying the history of language. There's no reason we shouldn't have only one planetary language, besides the whims of governments and nationalists.

I dream of a advanced designed language that incorporates the best features of existing written and verbal systems. Now that's a goal worth spending time on.

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#24

Post by voisin » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 1:54 AM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #20

syrrim wrote: post #16

The article reads like ad copy. Not surprising given the author. My working assumption is that duolingo's goal is to keep you using the app, and only ever teaches you a language coincidentally. It attempts to make you feel like you're adept at the language to keep you motivated. This is accomplished by teaching you a restricted subset of the language that you can become skilled at, but isn't necessarily sufficient in…

Duolingo can get you surprisingly far for vocabulary and alphabet memorization, but it will not bring you to functional fluency since it simply doesn't have any practice for that in it. They have tried to correct this for some languages, adding in 'stories'. All that said, it was actually a really great introductory program that made language learning more approchable. As an early intro and vocabulary supplement it i…

> functional fluency

Defined as verbal communication only? It has got me far enough so far that I can read certain newspapers with good comprehension. (I am at Intermediate 2 on Duo, so I suspect this will improve further)

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#25

Post by mrmrcoleman » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 1:55 AM UTC

syrrim wrote: post #16

The article reads like ad copy. Not surprising given the author. My working assumption is that duolingo's goal is to keep you using the app, and only ever teaches you a language coincidentally. It attempts to make you feel like you're adept at the language to keep you motivated. This is accomplished by teaching you a restricted subset of the language that you can become skilled at, but isn't necessarily sufficient in…

Total anecdata but with a combination of Duolingo and a French wife I've learned conversational French much faster (3.5 years) than I learned conversational Dutch with Dutch friends and books (5+ years).

So I guess I agree that while Duolingo alone isn't enough to get good at a language I have been frequently amazed by how it "gets" where I'm at on my learning journey.

Especially recently I've started taking the occasional tests it provides and that seems to change my learning journey in a convincing way.

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#26

Post by __float » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 1:56 AM UTC

salusinarduis wrote: post #23

Students waste a tremendous amount of time learning these things which could be better spent elsewhere. What if what humanity needs to realize is that language learning is a waste of time, unless you are studying the history of language. There's no reason we shouldn't have only one planetary language, besides the whims of governments and nationalists. I dream of a advanced designed language that incorporates the best…

That discards a _lot_ of culture along with it, no?

Learning languages is fun, and the people you can meet (which you wouldn't otherwise) and things you learn about your own native languages is worth it to me.

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#27

Post by Raidion » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 2:01 AM UTC

salusinarduis wrote: post #23

Students waste a tremendous amount of time learning these things which could be better spent elsewhere. What if what humanity needs to realize is that language learning is a waste of time, unless you are studying the history of language. There's no reason we shouldn't have only one planetary language, besides the whims of governments and nationalists. I dream of a advanced designed language that incorporates the best…

The most learned language on Duolingo is English, which is as close to a universal language as we have.

I think anything that allows other people to get outside their box and learn more about (and from!) people who don't share the same cultural background is a positive for the world.

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#28

Post by jghn » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #24

ehnto wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duolingo can get you surprisingly far for vocabulary and alphabet memorization, but it will not bring you to functional fluency since it simply doesn't have any practice for that in it. They have tried to correct this for some languages, adding in 'stories'. All that said, it was actually a really great introductory program that made language learning more approchable. As an early intro and vocabulary supplement it i…

> functional fluency Defined as verbal communication only? It has got me far enough so far that I can read certain newspapers with good comprehension. (I am at Intermediate 2 on Duo, so I suspect this will improve further)

Basic fluency is usually considered to be at the B2 level. Duolingo is generally viewed as topping people out around the A2/B1 range, depending on the language. I've seen them claim that their more thorough classes can get you to B2 but that would definitely not be the case halfway through their course material.

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#29

Post by throwaway9191aa » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 2:08 AM UTC

salusinarduis wrote: post #23

Students waste a tremendous amount of time learning these things which could be better spent elsewhere. What if what humanity needs to realize is that language learning is a waste of time, unless you are studying the history of language. There's no reason we shouldn't have only one planetary language, besides the whims of governments and nationalists. I dream of a advanced designed language that incorporates the best…

I just disagree entirely with this. Isn't Esperanto that planetary language? Or possibly even English? Apparently it doesn't scale a 8 billion people, and I'll say that is A Good Thing.

What if what humanity needs is to realize that you don't have to scale to the limits of the planet for something to be worth while.

Maybe the "time better spent elsewhere" should be spent learning that we are all humans with amazing cultural backgrounds, and what could be a better way to engage with others than through language?

I've just been reading way to much history of South America recently to accept this idea, but let's be honest, the entire world is based on this concept. Every time somebody tries to setup a "Planetary Language/Religion/Culture" it comes at the expense of "the others". Fuck this idea.

Re: Duolingo’s AI learns what you need to learn

#30

Post by cletus » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 2:08 AM UTC

This seems like marketing.

I tried Duolingo Spanish pretty much every day for 1-2 years at the highest rate (5 lessons/day IIRC) and honestly... I don't remember any of it.

The vocab is extremely selective (and limited). It's too easy to guess answers without knowing them. Simple things like capitalization giving away the first word of the answer and trailing puncutation giving away the last. It seems like your recorded "fluency" just faded at a simplistic rate rather than there being any true attempt at spaced repetition.

And then there was the gamification. The main goal of this was, of course, to get you to pay. At some point (years ago now) they added this hearts system where guessing wrong would hurt you. This is completely counterproductive (IMHO). The streaks, the badges, etc. It just seemed like it was shallow engagement bait.

But an AI that learns what you need to learn? No way. Not even close.