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If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

muezza.ca

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Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#151
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages. If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbishe…

I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless…

I was going to disagree with you, but a back of the envelope calculation shows that the energy of computer production is probably equivalent to that of a few hundred hours of use, and so if you can save 10% on energy you are probably environmentally justified in switching to a new device. This is very counterintuitive to me.

To first order the upper bound for carbon cost of production/recycling is going to be a multiple of the energy required to melt the components. Call that multiple four: production of raw materials + reshaping in factory + recycling of materials at EOL + energy cost for assembly. So a rough upper limit of the energy to switch a computers would be four times the energy to heat the computer's mass in water (4 J/gC) up to the melting point of silica (1900 C), and a rough lower bound would be the same using the heat capcity and melting point of iron (10x lower heat capacity, 1500 C), and neglecting assembly. For 1 kg of material, that gives a range of 1.8 and 32 MJ. Now you can compare to the energy used. For myself, I'm on a 2 kg laptop that draws up to 250W, but conservatively 50W. That adds up to 32 MJ/kg in 400 h. If I can reduce the energy use by 5W with a new model, that will pay itself back in 2 years of workday computation. Crazy.

Caveat: there will be additional non-CO2 environmental costs. Most components are not recycled, and resource extraction is also environmentally damaging.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#152
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A decade ago was 2013, the pentium 4 is at least 13 years old now, but entered production 23 years ago. There's still a lot of utility to be had from a 10 year old machine. My daily driver laptop os a lenovo t420 which came out in 2011. Sure it can't play games but it'll do fine with youtube, programming, etc. My server box is also a 2012 era machine, it's a 3770k build. It's perfectly fine for what I use it for. Yea…

If you have a need and you already own it - knock yourself out. But comparing spending 40 bucks on craigslist or ebay for an old pentium/core 2 duo, vs getting an rpi... You're probably better off with the Pi (assuming you can source it, which is not a given atm). I don't even buy most of mine used, I just get hand-me-downs from friends/family because they want to get rid of the machine and ask me to wipe the drive i…

Helpful thought process, as I've defaulted for a while to older machines I have around, but now I question how much power they're drawing. I've never really considered power more than how long do my laptop batteries last.

Do you have any pointers what sort of equipment to use to measure the power draw? Are you simply measuring it from a UPS?

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#153
> Because frankly the iMac wasn't really useful in a modern or a retro sense, though I expect some will debate its retro merits.

Can it run OS 9 natively? The earliest iMac G4 could, I've heard.

I bought a Mac G4 a couple years ago so I could have the most powerful computer that runs Mac OS 9 natively which then enables me to run Symantec's MORE.

MORE is this ancient, super dope outliner editor, which is just so fast and ergonomic at the keyboard. It's go all these features that have never really been replicated since, like cascading styles and presentation mode.

https://tidbits.com/1993/10/18/more-more-dinosaur/

I use Workflowy, which I love, but I kind of want to play with porting MORE's UI to the web and see if it could perform.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#154

> Because frankly the iMac wasn't really useful in a modern or a retro sense, though I expect some will debate its retro merits. Can it run OS 9 natively? The earliest iMac G4 could, I've heard. I bought a Mac G4 a couple years ago so I could have the most powerful computer that runs Mac OS 9 natively which then enables me to run Symantec's MORE. MORE is this ancient, super dope outliner editor, which is just so fast…

It can run OS 9, but it’s not amazing. I tried and it was relatively unstable even for OS 9 and I could never pin down why.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#155
post #95
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

T420 would be perfect if it wasn't for the god awful displays manufacturers used. I'd still be using mine otherwise. Just going from a 1080p monitor back to it was a pain. After using my M1 MBP und my 4k monitor for the past year, I could never go back.

Not sure about this model but I modded an X230 with a better display for $100. Surprisingly easy, it pops right open.

Classic Thinkpad repairability/hackability.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless…

I was going to disagree with you, but a back of the envelope calculation shows that the energy of computer production is probably equivalent to that of a few hundred hours of use, and so if you can save 10% on energy you are probably environmentally justified in switching to a new device. This is very counterintuitive to me. To first order the upper bound for carbon cost of production/recycling is going to be a multi…

The only remark I'd have here is that the cost to produce is amortized over the course of producing several hundred or even thousands of units. It's still there but is greatly reduced per unit I think.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#157

There are lots of people in the comments here who appear to not get it. This isn't about replacing a contemporary computer with something old. It's about the usability of a decent OS on very modest hardware. One of the systems on which I run NetBSD is a 33 MHz m68030 Mac LC III+ ( http://elsie.zia.io - it's hosting a site about an LC II, which I'm still working on). It's quite useful to see how assumptions people mak…

[deleted]

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#158
post #6

The problem with arguments like these is to me two-fold: 1. Physical space. Most of the older tech takes too much space. I don't live in a mansion and I have no dedicated rooms just for big bulky computers. 2. Power consumption, heat, noise. I would love to be less consumerist and use stuff from 15 years ago and stop feeding greedy corporations but... the old stuff consumes 90 to 200 watts, heats up easily and notice…

[deleted]

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#159

There are lots of people in the comments here who appear to not get it. This isn't about replacing a contemporary computer with something old. It's about the usability of a decent OS on very modest hardware. One of the systems on which I run NetBSD is a 33 MHz m68030 Mac LC III+ ( http://elsie.zia.io - it's hosting a site about an LC II, which I'm still working on). It's quite useful to see how assumptions people mak…

What part of SSH takes 6 minutes?

Running sshd on a 33 MHz m68030 (OpenSSH_9.1), and connecting to it from a modern(ish) machine (OpenSSH_8.1p1) takes about six minutes to complete when the system is otherwise idle. Right now it's busy with lots of http requests due to putting the link here, so it's taking about 9 minutes or so ;)

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#160
post #150
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not. Slow hardware _can_ give you a certain amount of _motivation_ for speeding up your software, but this is by no means a given (if software running slowly on your own computer automatically made you optimize it, there would not be software that is really slow even on fast hardware, and there clearly is). If you care about making software fast, you invest time in the measurements-ideas-measurements loop, wh…

In the case of OpenBSD itself, the popularity of the PCEngines APU2 has definitely provided motivation for improving the performance of PF. Also, ironically, people elsewhere in this article thread keep mentioning that older hardware is too power intensive. But the reason the APU2 is still around is because neither Intel nor AMD offer modern chips with a maximum TDP as low as the AMD G series. At maximum load, with a…

Back when Fry's Electronics was still around, they had a sale on old AMD MSi AM1 motherboards and Athlon 5350 quad core 2 GHz CPUs (APUs) for $45 or so for a set. I bought quite a few, and now I regret not buying more. At 100% CPU load they take less than 25 watts measured at the wall, and less than 40 watts with two spinning rust 3.5" disks. They make excellent NAT routers / firewalls / DNS servers, et cetera. They can route / NAT a full gigabit and still have cycles to spare.

The closest thing we have today is getting a quad core Ryzen and running sysctl -w machdep.cpu.frequency.target=1600. Personally, I'd rather have more of those wonderful 2014 motherboards and CPUs.

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