This DPA has already expired ( https://www.marketwatch.com/story/doj-seeks-to-end-hsbc-defe... ) .
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And HSBC has already had another that was enforced and expired already on tax evasion though it's Swiss private bank.
HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
101–110 of 118 posts
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hadn't heard of that. I know casinos had been a good way to launder money (buy $100,000 worth of chips, lose $5,000, cash out for $95,000), but I think they caught on to that.
The best way today is to give the money to friends and family and then have them give it back to you as a gift. Gift income is legitimate, the IRS can’t go challenge the people and ask where they got the money to give to you.
But how do they give it to you? If it's cash that’s going to raise all sorts of red flags.
Thats why the KYC and cash deposits are such a focus. The financial world is basically split into “money in the system” (where tracking source and destination are easy) and “money outside the system” (cash which is anonymous).
The government has just made it really hard to get money “into the system”. Its basically the chokepoint where you catch money from illegal sources.
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is complicated, for many reasons. A very important one is that responsibility is very diluted. - A bank executive opens an account to a seemingly legit company. - The compliance department OKs the account opening. - A bank teller receives 50k USD in cash every month. - Another teller receives another 50k USD in cash every month. - The head of the branch doesn't report strange activity. - The AML system by the bank…
Then by that logic, the drug runner should not be jailed either, as they too are a victim rather than an accomplice. May be they too are being threatened by the cartel to cooperate, and so on. Taken far enough, you really can't penalize anyone and things like sanctions don't work and have no teeth.
> Taken far enough, you really can't penalize anyone and things like sanctions don't work and have no teeth.
You're getting somewhere, actually. Crimes generally don't happen in a vacuum. In most crimes, the society around the perpetrator is complicit. Most people aren't born compelled to become delinquents. They're often driven by unfortunate circumstances and ignorance, situations that society shares part of the blame too. The criminal law just chooses the most unfortunate person as the "protagonist" to punish.
There are certainly "evil" people, but they're far less than the criminal law seeks to convict.
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
The best way today is to give the money to friends and family and then have them give it back to you as a gift. Gift income is legitimate, the IRS can’t go challenge the people and ask where they got the money to give to you.
But how do they give it to you ? If it's cash that’s going to raise all sorts of red flags. Thats why the KYC and cash deposits are such a focus. The financial world is basically split into “money in the system” (where tracking source and destination are easy) and “money outside the system” (cash which is anonymous). The government has just made it really hard to get money “into the system”. Its basically the chokepo…
Hard, but not impossible. Probably they just raised the commission that a money launderer charges you, which is progress I guess.
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
These aren't business decisions taken to corner the money laundering market for Mexican cartels. It's more like Mexican cartels try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through, and when they find one with poor controls that allow it they double-down on using that bank until their activity is stopped. Maybe at the country level they were happy with the transaction fees, but I would be surprised if i…
Do you have a source for the claim that drug cartels "try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through"? I don't believe that's how it works at all. If you read, for example Drug Cartels Do Not Exist by Oswaldo Zavala, you'll see that this money is fundamental to how global finance operates. Drug money provided the necessary liquidity to keep the world finance system from crashing in '08. It's the m…
Not sure what source you do expect to hear. wouldn't delve into it any further, but it is so, from firsthand source.
When you move this kind of money, you don't just go to branch and ask "to speak to someone". Usually you know someone from bank who can arrange that's needed.
And they know. And you know they know. And they know you know they know. So usually it's very clear.
There is no ethical concerns at this money volume at any bank, that's I can say for sure. It's only matter of risk/reward, with potential risks coming from regulators. For talented bankers who know how to structure businesses in middle, it's a no-brainer.
Doesn't just apply for drug cartels but for any sort of money.
And yea, 900m is something they have been caught with. Pretty sure actual number is substantially different.
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#106HSBC must've only been "found out" because US gov didn't get their share. Anyone thinking other big banks are innocent are too naïve. Drugs, weapons, terrorism.. all major banks and US gov have their share in the gains, either financial or political.
Exactly this. In normal course of action populace don't get to hear anything, and some resources get redistributed in favourable way for parties involved (mostly 3-letter US agencies).
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#107Another one? Corporate death penalty needs to be a thing. Do bad business consistently, as HSBC has since basically the dawn of its existence, and get your corporate charter revoked. Corporations are cynical, self-aware entities. And some, like HSBC, are sociopaths and a blight on civilization.
> And some, like HSBC, are sociopaths and a blight on civilization.
If you tend to think other banks are any better - there is a lot for you to discover my friend.
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the IRS can’t go challenge the people and ask where they got the money to give to you Isn't that what the IRS very much does? You're moving the risk to your "friends". Or more likely, to a bunch of mules you found on the internet who want to believe that they have a job sending money back and forth.
All of us are script kiddies in this game. My bet is, the real cartels have moved way beyond anything that any of us knows about. Art, jewels, shell companies, real estate... the list of possibilities goes on. That said; banks have to report any transaction that's large ($10,000 is it?), no matter to whom. I'd add "even if it's a gift" although I only suspect that's true.
There is always the old trick of just depositing the cash into safe deposit boxes - all the protection of a bank with none of the reporting. Works best if the bank is more then thirty miles from your home and business.
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
These aren't business decisions taken to corner the money laundering market for Mexican cartels. It's more like Mexican cartels try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through, and when they find one with poor controls that allow it they double-down on using that bank until their activity is stopped. Maybe at the country level they were happy with the transaction fees, but I would be surprised if i…
Do you have a source for the claim that drug cartels "try all the banks to see which ones they can launder money through"? I don't believe that's how it works at all. If you read, for example Drug Cartels Do Not Exist by Oswaldo Zavala, you'll see that this money is fundamental to how global finance operates. Drug money provided the necessary liquidity to keep the world finance system from crashing in '08. It's the m…
So in your mental model of how this works, Pablo Escobar (or whoever) rings up the CEO of multinational banks and says "I've got a business proposition for you."?
Re: HSBC's Money Laundering Scandal (2022)
#110The unfortunate outcomes of these events is that, like a ratchet, it just gets harder and harder for ordinary citizens to go about their lives. It used to be that you could just walk into a bank and open an account on the spot. And it's still like that in many developing countries. It's now at the point that just having a bank account is becoming an asset in itself. It's an increasingly major process to open one, and…
> It's an increasingly major process to open one No disagreements with your post otherwise, but I haven’t found this to be the case personally. I’ve opened two bank accounts in the past year without much hassle - one a joint account at a big bank with my partner that we were able to do fairly painlessly from our house. (Opening account in her name was online, but then we had to call in for someone to manually add me…
Try to move to another country. Take e. g. the UK. To open a bank account you need a proof of you address in the UK like an utility bill (or anther's bank statement). To rent a flat you need a bank account because most agencies/landlords don't accept cash and would ask you to wire a holding deposit/rent/fees. Catch22. And the government in most cases knows you address anyway.