Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

muezza.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 357 posts

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#81

Post by flenserboy »

mro_name wrote: post #44
johnklos wrote: post #33

There are lots of people in the comments here who appear to not get it. This isn't about replacing a contemporary computer with something old. It's about the usability of a decent OS on very modest hardware. One of the systems on which I run NetBSD is a 33 MHz m68030 Mac LC III+ ( http://elsie.zia.io - it's hosting a site about an LC II, which I'm still working on). It's quite useful to see how assumptions people mak…

indeed, developing fast software requires slow hardware.

Excellent point. Software testing (not for stability but instead for usability, and certainly not for compiling, lol) ought to be done on minimal-spec systems (the specs of which might possibly be dialed-down further once optimization is done, which would be a bonus). Assuming that a faster system (or one with more RAM or storage) will cure the real problem has allowed all sorts of sloppiness to creep into software.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#82

Post by josephcsible »

1over137 wrote: post #64
pdimitar wrote: post #6

The problem with arguments like these is to me two-fold: 1. Physical space. Most of the older tech takes too much space. I don't live in a mansion and I have no dedicated rooms just for big bulky computers. 2. Power consumption, heat, noise. I would love to be less consumerist and use stuff from 15 years ago and stop feeding greedy corporations but... the old stuff consumes 90 to 200 watts, heats up easily and notice…

>the old stuff consumes 90 to 200 watts, heats up easily and noticeably Which is great when it's -30 outside, like today. :)

Even then it's not really great. If your goal with electric power is heating, heat pumps are a much more efficient way to do so.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#83

Post by anthk »

Sakos wrote: post #77
sourcecodeplz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard there's quite the group here on HN that browse the web on CLI browsers.

I used to use a CLI client for Reddit primarily. It was great. Maybe I should check that out again...something about the CLI really appeals to me.

You have ttrv and lynx gopher://gopherddit.com.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#84

Post by adrianmsmith »

tambourine_man wrote: post #25

Something that aged poorly are browsers. Can you run contemporary Chromium, Firefox, WebKit decently on a 800mhz G4? And I doubt it could handle more than a few open tabs with 512MB of RAM. Most everything else I use computers for have been fast enough for 20 years or so.

Last time I used a computer with 1GB RAM was in 2014, with 32-bit Windows XP. The computer had 512MB in use after startup and could only handle 2-3 tabs in the Chrome of the time, everything (e.g. Gmail at the time) seemed to use about 100MB.

So 2014 Chrome with webapps like 2014 Gmail wasn't really practical on 1GB. So I very much doubt that 2023 Chrome with 2023 webapps would be practical on 512MB RAM.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#85

Post by ghaff »

pdimitar wrote: post #54
rakoo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In digital, pollution happens during construction way more than usage. It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. The second-hand market is filled with material that was built at same point; you having access to your nice second hand laptop is due to newer laptops being built all the time. It is still sending a signal upstream that such a computer can be sold. I do agree that buying second hand is much better…

I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years + it will consume a single order of magnitude less power over these 10 years adds up to more environment care. The production is already completed. The damage has been done. Let's use the machines at least because they are 10x more efficient and we can slow down…

I still use a 2015 MacBook Pro daily. (Also have an Apple Silicon MacBook but I keep the Intel-based one downstairs and pretty much just use it as a web browser.) It's had its battery replaced (and the screen replaced under warranty for a defect) but it's just fine for my needs.

The power issue is more with large desktop systems. I was setting up a moderately old but fairly hefty system as a file server. Couldn't get it working--which I discovered belatedly was an issue related to my network switch--so I bought an unpopulated Synology box. But, given power consumption, I also realized that was probably the more cost-effective thing to do anyway.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#86

Post by amatecha »

abricot wrote: post #4

If you are happy not surfing most of the Web, any computer is good enough. It's usually browsers and web pages that brings these older PCs down.

We do have basically latest Firefox on OpenBSD. But yeah, to be fair, I have to restart Firefox frequently on my X230's running OpenBSD. It either just stops rendering altogether (literally even application UI fails to render) or eats up so much memory and CPU the cooling fan is just always running at a kinda high level. Otherwise, it's super solid and a great OS for older machines IMO.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#87

Post by amatecha »

tambourine_man wrote: post #25

Something that aged poorly are browsers. Can you run contemporary Chromium, Firefox, WebKit decently on a 800mhz G4? And I doubt it could handle more than a few open tabs with 512MB of RAM. Most everything else I use computers for have been fast enough for 20 years or so.

Yeah, I was running Firefox on my iMac G4 with OpenBSD. It was being killed frequently though by hitting the memory limit (which at the time I didn't know how to raise). I'm intending to go back and try again with my deeper knowledge of the OS. I have MANY old machines which could benefit from having a latest-features OS to use.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#88

Post by Sesse__ »

mro_name wrote: post #44
johnklos wrote: post #33

There are lots of people in the comments here who appear to not get it. This isn't about replacing a contemporary computer with something old. It's about the usability of a decent OS on very modest hardware. One of the systems on which I run NetBSD is a 33 MHz m68030 Mac LC III+ ( http://elsie.zia.io - it's hosting a site about an LC II, which I'm still working on). It's quite useful to see how assumptions people mak…

indeed, developing fast software requires slow hardware.

It does not. Slow hardware _can_ give you a certain amount of _motivation_ for speeding up your software, but this is by no means a given (if software running slowly on your own computer automatically made you optimize it, there would not be software that is really slow even on fast hardware, and there clearly is).

If you care about making software fast, you invest time in the measurements-ideas-measurements loop, where having fast hardware helps a lot (it allows you get measurements faster, and try out more ideas in a given time frame). Since any sane measurement is based on benchmarking and not eyeballing, slower CPUs don't help you. And you certainly can care about fast software without having a slow computer personally.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#89

Post by pdimitar »

oriolid wrote: post #79
pdimitar wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts. The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless…

I'm not completely convinced. The early PCs didn't need heat sinks or fans other than the 80mm PSU fan. They were inefficient, but the total power wasn't that huge. Even for newer computers, I have a Raspberry Pi 2 that draws 3 watts at maximum load and less when idle. It's powerful enough for what it does and even with this energy crisis it would need to run for years before the energy savings would cover the cost o…

Yep, it's not a super clear win. But I was talking about the old desktop or all-in-one machines. They still draw a bit more but you're also right that the amortized cost blurs things. But since I plan on using the refurbished modern machines that I got, for years, maybe the equation will be in my favor... eventually. :)

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#90

Post by ibz »

syntex wrote: post #65

The power usage is a serious issue, I recently scrapped an old PC. It was perfectly fine and usable, but I found it draws with graphics card more than 200W. And taking into account how much electricity rose in Europe it's super expensive to run. And the new one it's 15 times less. So let's take care at least a bit about the environment.

> let's take care at least a bit about the environment

You know that producing that PC used way more energy than it would consume if you left it running?

> taking into account how much electricity rose in Europe

This seems like your main reason actually. Your wallet, not the environment. If the energy prices went down, you would have kept the old PC around rather than having it end up in a landfill or shipped to a poor country where people literally burn the PCBs to recover tiny bits of rare metals.

Post reply on HN