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Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#411

Post by onethought »

bsuvc wrote: post #324
phil21 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. This. I can't believe HN zeitgeist cannot understand this. Why would I hire a US employee for twice the cost when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year? It's honestly not even really a decision at this point if you have the management infrastructure in place.

> when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year This is fantasy.

Having done this for over ten years. It’s not. It’s actually way easier than people think.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#412

Post by kelnos »

matrisking wrote: post #407
krippe wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm supposed to deal with the hassle of commuting, losing hours of my day, because YOU are starved for human connections? Get out of here...

Yeesh. Who said you're supposed to do anything?

Literally everyone in these threads advocating for a return to office?

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#413

Post by jemmyw »

nostrebored wrote: post #390
ornornor wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you only interact during scheduled meetings with a defind purpose, you never engage in work-related small talk Whats stopping people from scheduling “shoot the shit” of coffee calls though? That’s what I’ve seen many do since the wfh mandate and it works in exactly the same way you describe: people vent, talk about what happened during meetings, etc.

I hate online coffee chats and love workplace conversation. Coffee chats have an overloaded amount of assumptions — conversation should start off personal, last for x minutes, make you feel closer to a teammate. This is the exact opposite of a hallway conversation that can be about anything. It can differ based on the person and your relationship.

Yeah I'm not keen on the organized chats. We did those pre pandemic and I got nothing from them. Casual conversation has to be adhoc, whether it's in person or by call.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#414

Post by kelnos »

robertlagrant wrote: post #318
kelnos wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we should require that everyone be in an office, so that people like you can get their career-defining opportunities? Maybe many of us would be fine making that trade-off: fewer opportunities for career-defining opportunities in exchange for the elimination of a commute, more-comfortable working arrangements, and a much more flexible work schedule. Not everything in life is about career advancement.

Why go off one example and pretend it's the whole topic? They were just saying it's easily possible to have meaningful conversations, as a counter to the previous comment.

Not sure what you mean; please re-read the comment I'm replying to. They made a single point on a single topic, and I addressed it.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#415

Post by necovek »

kelnos wrote: post #288
atsuzaki wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I scored most (if not all) of my career-defining opportunities from hallway convos after a meeting, or chatting while waiting for coffee to brew, so YMMV.

So we should require that everyone be in an office, so that people like you can get their career-defining opportunities? Maybe many of us would be fine making that trade-off: fewer opportunities for career-defining opportunities in exchange for the elimination of a commute, more-comfortable working arrangements, and a much more flexible work schedule. Not everything in life is about career advancement.

So everyone should work from home?

Yes, that's not what you said, just like that's not what the comment you replied to said.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#416

Post by herghost »

nostromo wrote: post #369
65 wrote: post #342

I'm in my 20s. I live alone in a city where I don't know anyone. Remote work destroyed my mental health. All I wanted was to be able to go into an office and talk to a real life person. I would go weeks at a time not talking to a single person in real life. I don't think people understand the plight of the young office worker until they've experienced the torture of solitary confinement. Day in, day out. All alone. I…

Working in person isn't the issue here -- not having friends is the issue. People do make friends at work, and that's a good thing. But it should never be your primary place of making friends. (Friends and family won't lay you off like a job might. Having a network outside of work is critical if that ever happens.) Asking your coworkers to come into the office just so you can get some needed face time with other peop…

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

I'm happily married, children, dog, several distinct groups of friends, great job at a great company, lovely house in a nice village, etc, etc, etc.

I worked from home for about 4 years as a freelancer and found it incredibly isolating (but lucrative, so endured it) but finally had enough and get a permanent job back in an office. This was 5 weeks before what would be the first of several COVID lockdowns and roughly 3 years later there's still no realistic "office culture" where I work.

Last year was incredibly tough for me. Incredibly dark. Despite everything that I ostensibly had going for me I was suddenly crushingly lonely, anxious, probably depressed. 8-10 hours per day of constantly interacting on Zoom calls doesn't just cut it. It's not the same.

I don't think the answer is to necessarily "return to the office" as a 100% arrangement. I don't think that's possible in reality. But something has to change; undeniable dilemma.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#417

Post by Gigachad »

nostromo wrote: post #399
Gigachad wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve got friends but you can’t fill 100% of your social interactions with meeting friends. Unless you have a very large number of them, you won’t be able to see them daily, and even if you do, you end up consuming all of your free time with socialising and having no personal time left. Remote work left me choosing between fulfilling social interaction or personal time after work, either option leaving me unsatisfied.…

Sure, friends are part of it -- family is the other part of it. If you don't have either -- filling that void by spending all day in an office sounds even more depressing. I'd focus more on making friends and finding a committed relationship. There are lots of solutions here outside of working in-person: Find roommates. Start playing sports. Date more. Find an in-person hobby. Volunteer.

What I know is that those first few years of my career in office were the best years of my life. I’ve been scrambling around trying everything to fill the gap left by remote work, I go to meetups, I have family and friends, none of it is as significant as working together with people for the majority of your day.

I’m going back to the office and I won’t take another job that has most people remote.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#418

Post by pflanze »

_gmax0 wrote: post #233
n8cpdx wrote: post #67

There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes. That’s the sort of thing that isn’t immediately obvious, but becomes more noticeable as time goes on. The first months of the pandemic people were able to coast on their existing connections, but it becomes harder years on, especially if half your team has _never_ met in person or come to company HQ. In the before tim…

I'd be curious to see a study done comparing the extent of happen-chance that occurs in-person vs digitally. Digital hallways exist in the form of private messages.

Do you have tips on how to approach coworkers about "odd" topics via private messages? The "hallway" principle as I understand it is that it is low-key, low-risk, you can immediately read the others' reactions, and you (usually) won't be blamed for odd thoughts, nor does the other side need to feel pressured to handle your question well.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#419

Post by michaelt »

> what are your primary motivations dragging us back into the office?

The truth is, for a great many jobs it's impossible to measure work well enough to tell if you worked 1 day or 5 last week.

You're debugging a memory leak? Well, maybe it was very difficult to find. You're reviewing grant proposals? Who's to say how carefully you read them? You say it was very difficult to make this page work on chrome, firefox and safari? Well, if you say so.

Meanwhile, employers have read articles about "quiet quitting".

I suspect employers fear we're on the golf course, working a second full-time job, or reading HN. Sending people back to the office assures them that's not the case.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#420

Post by treis »

thinking4real wrote: post #309
treis wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're supposed to be actively participating in refinement. Reading the story being talked about, looking up documentation, checking on potential solutions, and other things of that nature. You can't do that with raw chicken on your hands or while walking to the fridge to get veggies. The fact that this has to be explained to people is why there's a push to return to the office.

[flagged]

> irrational micromanaging bully

The fact that having a standard of "pay attention in meetings & don't be a ghost" gets you labelled an "irrational micromanaging bully" is exactly why management pushes for a return to office. It's just way less of a hassle for them than having these sorts of battles.

> evaluations of people without knowing their story.

Pot meet kettle

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