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Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#361
post #67

There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes. That’s the sort of thing that isn’t immediately obvious, but becomes more noticeable as time goes on. The first months of the pandemic people were able to coast on their existing connections, but it becomes harder years on, especially if half your team has _never_ met in person or come to company HQ. In the before tim…

> Finally, everyone being remote is really bad for younger/newer employees who completely miss out on networking, mentorship, company culture, etc.

Thank you for mentioning the importance of this. I graduated and entered the job market during the start of the pandemic. Getting a job was super difficult because every company suddenly implemented a hiring freeze. I managed to find a job at the company I interned at because they lost many developers due to the company being in the travel space (they didn't want to find themselves jobless in a pandemic, travel related payments were tanking). They were so desperate for bodies I got waived through because I was an intern one whole year before.

I quickly found myself in an empty office trying to onboard myself through the process, with a handful of tired devs trying to do the work that before had a team of 30. I spent my first few months in panic because nobody could find the time or patience to work with me, and the business logic was quite dense. It was still my first job and I hadn't worked up the courage to ask for help, and it was x10 harder when we worked from home. I could ask my fellow desk-mate because I could judge how busy they were, but it was torture asking people over teams and interrupting their flow.

Now almost 3 years into my job, I can definetly see how my anxiety kept me from progressing and I grew a lot. But WFH as a new person into the workforce, it was difficult until I found my footing and a routine. And a nice mentor. I am not ashamed to admit that it took me quite a while. Now I have more experience and I can work a bit more independently, so I appriciate our 2 wfh days. But most of our collaboration work is done best in the office.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#362
post #324
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. This. I can't believe HN zeitgeist cannot understand this. Why would I hire a US employee for twice the cost when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year? It's honestly not even really a decision at this point if you have the management infrastructure in place.

> when I can hire someone 95% as good remotely in a low cost area of the world and actually get an employee that sticks around for a decade vs. a year This is fantasy.

Unless you’re a front of the field AI researcher or have other extremely specific domain knowledge in high demand areas then this is reality, get accustomed to it.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#363

I’m a CTO at a small startup, not forcing RTO on anyone BUT the vibe I get in my peer group is that managers don’t know how to manage remote teams, don’t want to do real performance management, and they personally have some loneliness issues they solve by working from the office. I work from an office with my cofounder 1 day/week, and it has been great for my mental health to leave my living room. I think broadly spe…

You’re c-suite material all right. A natural hate for someone asking for more compensation. Hope your startup fails.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#364
post #67

There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes. That’s the sort of thing that isn’t immediately obvious, but becomes more noticeable as time goes on. The first months of the pandemic people were able to coast on their existing connections, but it becomes harder years on, especially if half your team has _never_ met in person or come to company HQ. In the before tim…

"There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes." I've seen this idea repeated many times, but in over 20 years in the tech industry, I've never once seen a meaningful collaboration spring up in a kitchenette or hallway. It's invariably "how was your weekend?" fare. Don't get me wrong, there's value in connecting that way, but it's never the sort of thing that dire…

I have had a lot of interesting conversations with colleagues from other teams while grabbing a coffee. Sometimes it's just meaningless small talk about the weekend but sometimes we talk about work and help each other find solutions to problems, or realize we should collaborate. And even if it's just small talk, making those kinds of connections can make it a lot easier to get in touch with them in the future.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Sorry buddy but that's on you. You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others. Then at some point down the road when they need to hire someone, they remember, hey 'snozolli' was a great coworker, let me see if they're available.

What about remote work prevents "being generous and helpful to others"? Or, put differently, what about being in an office makes it easier to be generous and helpful? And before you reply: how sure are you that whatever you come up with applies to everyone and not just to you and people like you? Keep in mind that a lot of people in tech (myself included) are literally digital natives who learned to socialize on the…

Where did I say you can't be generous or helpful remotely? My comment applies to any type of work (until non-human AI replaces all of us).

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#366
The company I'm with since 2015, was founded in 1989 and has been fully remote since that time. As a remote working for 8+ years, I found the initial transition difficult (came from brick and mortar) but now I cannot imagine going back to that. The collaboration and spontaneous connections work just fine remote, at least they have in my experiences.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I echo others here - I've not seen a meaningful, revenue-driving conversation happen in these in a decade of work. Do you have specific examples of valuable collaboration in one of these environments? I can think of lots, and am surprised anyone would say otherwise - I guess you must be using a really high bar for "meaningful". An example might be, "You know, I didn't want to say anything in the meeting, but doesn'…

> If you only interact during scheduled meetings with a defind purpose, you never engage in work-related small talk Whats stopping people from scheduling “shoot the shit” of coffee calls though? That’s what I’ve seen many do since the wfh mandate and it works in exactly the same way you describe: people vent, talk about what happened during meetings, etc.

It feels very artificial and takes a lot more planning. I still do this sometimes but it's not the same.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I scored most (if not all) of my career-defining opportunities from hallway convos after a meeting, or chatting while waiting for coffee to brew, so YMMV.

Question for you to help satisfy my curiosity about this a bit... do you also enjoy socializing in bars or the like?

Not really. I'm very introverted and not good with strangers, actually in the process of getting an autism diagnosis right now.

But I really enjoy socializing with folks with similar interests (e.g., tech), and I work with a lot of neurodivergent colleagues which puts less of a strain on my social battery as I don't have to be "normal"---we're all weird and it's fine.

Still, my social battery drains quickly nonetheless, I tend to have to leave after hanging out for an hour or two.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#369
post #342

I'm in my 20s. I live alone in a city where I don't know anyone. Remote work destroyed my mental health. All I wanted was to be able to go into an office and talk to a real life person. I would go weeks at a time not talking to a single person in real life. I don't think people understand the plight of the young office worker until they've experienced the torture of solitary confinement. Day in, day out. All alone. I…

Working in person isn't the issue here -- not having friends is the issue.

People do make friends at work, and that's a good thing. But it should never be your primary place of making friends. (Friends and family won't lay you off like a job might. Having a network outside of work is critical if that ever happens.)

Asking your coworkers to come into the office just so you can get some needed face time with other people doesn't seem fair to them. They have social lives outside of work and aren't being paid to be someone's social outlet.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Sorry buddy but that's on you. You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others. Then at some point down the road when they need to hire someone, they remember, hey 'snozolli' was a great coworker, let me see if they're available.

>You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others. In my experience all my valuable connections have come from me working really hard on the same team as them and being goals oriented and meeting those goals; not wasting time dilly dallying in the hallways. Making meaningful connections in the hallway sounds like a middle manager thing.

Working really hard and meeting goals == helpful and generous. I'm sure at some point you had a roadblock on a piece of code and a co-worker helped you overcome it, or vice versa. Or you covered for someone that one day when his kid was sick so the team didn't fall behind it's timeline.

Being sociable and taking an interest in other people via hallway convos is also a good way to build connections and/or friendships, but that has nothing to do with my earlier comment.

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