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If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

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Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#61

Post by rakoo »

pdimitar wrote: post #54
rakoo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In digital, pollution happens during construction way more than usage. It still makes sense to use a decade-old computer. The second-hand market is filled with material that was built at same point; you having access to your nice second hand laptop is due to newer laptops being built all the time. It is still sending a signal upstream that such a computer can be sold. I do agree that buying second hand is much better…

I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years + it will consume a single order of magnitude less power over these 10 years adds up to more environment care. The production is already completed. The damage has been done. Let's use the machines at least because they are 10x more efficient and we can slow down…

I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages.

If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbished, etc...

It's a whole market and if constructors see that the overall tendency is of using longer, they will get the signal that there can be less sales overall. And thus build less.

Everything we do is part of a larger system, and I believe we should understand what the system is like and how it works if we want to have a real impact.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#63

Post by pdimitar »

rakoo wrote: post #61
pdimitar wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that extra pollution comes from manufacturing and said as much in my post already. But I believe the fact that this laptop can last at least 10 years + it will consume a single order of magnitude less power over these 10 years adds up to more environment care. The production is already completed. The damage has been done. Let's use the machines at least because they are 10x more efficient and we can slow down…

I think we need to take a step back and see the big picture. There are 10-year olds computers sitting unused; as a whole, it can fill a percentage of usages. If it does then the people using them don't need to buy another one, new or refurbished. If they don't need to buy, other people can't sell as easily. If they can't sell as easily, they might use it longer, and not need/want to buy another one, old or refurbishe…

I believe many of us are aware of the bigger picture outlined by you, but you keep ignoring the point that the previous 10-year old computers burn much more electricity. And as I already said, the newer more efficient machines have been built already so we might as well use them and help the planet by using less watts.

The process you describe is yet to happen e.g. the computers I have I don't want to replace unless they crash and burn. So in 5-ish years I believe vendors will slow down manufacturing indeed because many people do like I do: they get the newer more power-efficient stuff and then hold on to it for longer periods.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#64

Post by 1over137 »

pdimitar wrote: post #6

The problem with arguments like these is to me two-fold: 1. Physical space. Most of the older tech takes too much space. I don't live in a mansion and I have no dedicated rooms just for big bulky computers. 2. Power consumption, heat, noise. I would love to be less consumerist and use stuff from 15 years ago and stop feeding greedy corporations but... the old stuff consumes 90 to 200 watts, heats up easily and notice…

>the old stuff consumes 90 to 200 watts, heats up easily and noticeably

Which is great when it's -30 outside, like today. :)

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#65

Post by syntex »

The power usage is a serious issue, I recently scrapped an old PC. It was perfectly fine and usable, but I found it draws with graphics card more than 200W. And taking into account how much electricity rose in Europe it's super expensive to run. And the new one it's 15 times less. So let's take care at least a bit about the environment.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#67

Post by [deleted] »

pdimitar wrote: post #6

The problem with arguments like these is to me two-fold: 1. Physical space. Most of the older tech takes too much space. I don't live in a mansion and I have no dedicated rooms just for big bulky computers. 2. Power consumption, heat, noise. I would love to be less consumerist and use stuff from 15 years ago and stop feeding greedy corporations but... the old stuff consumes 90 to 200 watts, heats up easily and notice…

[deleted]

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#68

Post by prmoustache »

busterarm wrote: post #35
hedora wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The thing I dislike the most about openbsd is the lack of modern, supported hardware. One notable exception is the PC Engines APU 2, though that’s stretching the definition of modern. Seriously: Pick a laptop SKU that is still being manufactured and has similar ergonomics to a MacBook Pro or classic thinkpad (centered keyboard + trackpad, 4K screen, all the other bits in the right spots, reasonably quiet, 8 hou…

The biggest things that OpenBSD doesn't support (well) are Bluetooth, some wifi cards and TPM modules. And you can literally fix all of these issues with a supported USB device. Been running OpenBSD on multiple generations of Thinkpad laptops without issue. Using the Protectli 6 port device as an OpenBSD router (Intel NICs are well-supported).

Add to that bluetooth is generally a mess. The only thing where it is vaguely useful is for audio and I believe you can still use a bluetooth audio transceiver such as the Creative BT-W3 that present itself as a usb audio interface to the OS if you really want to connect those audio headphones of yours.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#69

Post by bilinguliar »

squarefoot wrote: post #20

I totally understand the nostalgia value, but energy doesn't grow on trees. A small mini-PC would consume a fraction of the current needed to run those old machines, offering much more computing power in return. Not to talk about the much better scaling achieved by modern processors; some iMac models would idle at almost 100 Watts.

> energy doesn’t grow on trees

I think this statement may be wrong.

Re: If you're happy with OpenBSD, probably any computer is good enough

#70

Post by prmoustache »

squarefoot wrote: post #20

I totally understand the nostalgia value, but energy doesn't grow on trees. A small mini-PC would consume a fraction of the current needed to run those old machines, offering much more computing power in return. Not to talk about the much better scaling achieved by modern processors; some iMac models would idle at almost 100 Watts.

The thing is the fact it can work well on an old imac g3/g4 means you can probably have a decent enough experience on an old raspberry pi 3 or similar or that 30$ laptop with a much more recent cpu and 1G of ram that is also supported by openbsd.
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