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Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#301

Post by Smaug123 »

ineptech wrote: post #264
gemstones wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes. I echo others here - I've not seen a meaningful, revenue-driving conversation happen in these in a decade of work. Do you have specific examples of valuable collaboration in one of these environments? > Edit: full disclosure, I’m not an employer but I sympathize and spent a lot of time thinking about these things as…

> I echo others here - I've not seen a meaningful, revenue-driving conversation happen in these in a decade of work. Do you have specific examples of valuable collaboration in one of these environments? I can think of lots, and am surprised anyone would say otherwise - I guess you must be using a really high bar for "meaningful". An example might be, "You know, I didn't want to say anything in the meeting, but doesn'…

My team kept a Webex room open at the start of every morning for just turning up and chatting in; it would generally stay open in the background until everyone had left for meetings. It certainly worked well for us. Sometimes people just worked silently through it, but usually there was lots of chat.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#302

Post by rihegher »

pythonbase wrote: post #80

Short answer: Control. Traditional employers want their employees back in the office since they are unable to control them otherwise. Employers and managers who have failed to grasp the concepts of remote working, lack in async communication, and have trust issues with their staff, want to keep a physical headcount of the sheep

I have been working remotely almost exclusively for the last 13 years. One thing I've realized (and experimented) is that it is super easy to make a team of full remote developers to jump ship together since they don't have to move to a new place if they stay in remote positions. In addition they can continue working within the same team if all the team agree to change company together. And I think this can be quite scary from an employer point of view.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#303

Post by ddingus »

sseagull wrote: post #213
gemstones wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes. I echo others here - I've not seen a meaningful, revenue-driving conversation happen in these in a decade of work. Do you have specific examples of valuable collaboration in one of these environments? > Edit: full disclosure, I’m not an employer but I sympathize and spent a lot of time thinking about these things as…

> I echo others here - I've not seen a meaningful, revenue-driving conversation happen in these in a decade of work. If you restrict yourself to that metric, maybe. But theres more to life (and business) than that. Does everyone on HN seriously care that little about fellow workers? Not necessarily asking to become close friends, but I feel a workplace that is business-only to be sterile and depressing. It’s interest…

Absolutely.

"Revenue driving" is one metric. Another one is, "cost reduction", and still another on is overall zeal for the work.

A good conversation can hit any and all these metrics. And it all adds right up too.

I care about coworkers. When people are able to make it OK, it shows! Tons of small things happen, people helping one another out, feeding off one anothers overall energy, and more really matter!

There needs to be laughter, fun, and the good vibes that come from a group of people who understand one another well enough to appreciate the time they spend together.

A group like that will have plenty of the business conversations too. First and foremost, they will be comfortable enough around one another to have those chats with few worries.

Another thing to keep an eye out on is fear, blame and shame.

Much better to boil it down to choices and outcomes.

Did we make a bad call? Ok, great. The outcome sacked, so how do we avoid that in the future? Easy conversation that should not worry anyone.

Making failure into learning opportunities is another big one. People need to be able to try it whatever it is. And when they can share the experiences and draw own their more seasoned peers, they improve rapidly and feel good about the whole process.

I could go on here, but there are just a ton of human dynamics well worth the bit of time and attention needed to insure everyone is able to participate without having fear, blame and shame front and center.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#304

Post by sodapopcan »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #148
jpeterson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes." I've seen this idea repeated many times, but in over 20 years in the tech industry, I've never once seen a meaningful collaboration spring up in a kitchenette or hallway. It's invariably "how was your weekend?" fare. Don't get me wrong, there's value in connecting that way, but it's never the sort of thing that dire…

Moreover, personally I'd prefer it stays this way. When I take a break and go to the kitchen to get a coffee, it is also a part of mental hygiene - I need to clear my mind as it needs some rest, too. So the last thing I want is someone bothering me about a merge request or some planned feature. A weekend trip, on the other hand, is perfectly fine.

Hear hear. I worked at a place that pair programmed all the time (I liked it that way—it's why I joined the company) but it meant that I always had to eat lunch at my desk. To me it's crazy to be talking all morning then talk all through lunch then talk all afternoon! But to each their own.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#305

Post by Clubber »

listenallyall wrote: post #168
snozolli wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every element you mention as being part of an in-office experience has been completely absent from my career. Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Never received any mentorship or even any guidance, I was always simply given a task and expected to complete it. Company culture doesn't even feel like a real thing outside of HR blurbs. Spontaneous collaboration was outweighed by interruptions and meddl…

> Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Sorry buddy but that's on you. You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others. Then at some point down the road when they need to hire someone, they remember, hey 'snozolli' was a great coworker, let me see if they're available.

>You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others.

In my experience all my valuable connections have come from me working really hard on the same team as them and being goals oriented and meeting those goals; not wasting time dilly dallying in the hallways. Making meaningful connections in the hallway sounds like a middle manager thing.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#306

Post by ornornor »

kelnos wrote: post #288
atsuzaki wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I scored most (if not all) of my career-defining opportunities from hallway convos after a meeting, or chatting while waiting for coffee to brew, so YMMV.

So we should require that everyone be in an office, so that people like you can get their career-defining opportunities? Maybe many of us would be fine making that trade-off: fewer opportunities for career-defining opportunities in exchange for the elimination of a commute, more-comfortable working arrangements, and a much more flexible work schedule. Not everything in life is about career advancement.

> Not everything in life is about career advancement.

Well said :)

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#307

Post by osigurdson »

Not an employer but if I was, I would absolutely be full remote. Employees mostly want this and costs / headaches are far lower. I don’t buy into the “water cooler” thesis. If you want people to collaborate more, ask them to work together. This is where I find the best connections are formed.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#308

Post by giantg2 »

guhidalg wrote: post #281
giantg2 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems wild to me. It seems like the company and managers are doing something wrong if all your advancement is coming from random unofficial chats.

Wow where do you work that management has their shit together that well?

Management doesn't have it together, but they do make suggestions about taking on certain projects etc that are good for your career and at least talk about plans to getting to the next level (sometimes).

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#309

Post by thinking4real »

treis wrote: post #256
cweagans wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be surprised to know that one can do meal prep and pay attention to sprint refinement at the same time. For me, having something to do with my hands while talking helps to keep me focused.

You're supposed to be actively participating in refinement. Reading the story being talked about, looking up documentation, checking on potential solutions, and other things of that nature. You can't do that with raw chicken on your hands or while walking to the fridge to get veggies. The fact that this has to be explained to people is why there's a push to return to the office.

[flagged]

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#310

Post by nprateem »

mostlysimilar wrote: post #85
0xB31B1B wrote: post #21

I’m a CTO at a small startup, not forcing RTO on anyone BUT the vibe I get in my peer group is that managers don’t know how to manage remote teams, don’t want to do real performance management, and they personally have some loneliness issues they solve by working from the office. I work from an office with my cofounder 1 day/week, and it has been great for my mental health to leave my living room. I think broadly spe…

> You can find very committed senior talent in latam for 120-160k, the US equivalent would be 180-250k, and the latam folks are less likely to job hop or negotiate a higher comp in month 12 Disagree. Quality engineers will ask for their worth regardless of location. Also I think indexing on "less likely to job hop or negotiate salary" is short-sighted thinking. You're asking people to do a complex job where the key s…

Your 'worth' is determined by the market rate. Try moving to Pakistan and getting paid $250k without an SV network to fall back on.
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