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Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

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Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#151
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why does he need students to do his own research? That's a phenomenally good question. Short answer: because of incentives in academia( ). To be high up in the academic hierarchy( ), you want top-ranked publications. So you work on those and score a few - good on you! However, a researcher in the same field outdid you by publishing their own work AND supervising a student. That increased their output, so they g…

Benefit to that is you are training the next generation. Do research on your own, good, but have ten grad students working for you and you can basically multiply your output by ten. Note, the grad students a majority of the time won't be able to do the research without your advice, this is just a fact; there are exceptions but that's just how it is the majority of the time.

Also, who is going to defend your scientific legacy after you pass on to the great ivory tower in the sky?

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#152
post #144
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and it was phrased with "unfortunately" and as a "dystopia" which I took to mean "it shouldn't be this way." I wasn't trying to refute their point that tradeoffs exist, but rather indicate that's exactly how one should expect the system to operate. (Possible I misread their intent, though.) The idea that someone would expect to 1) land a job they love while 2) making gobs of money and 3) have it generalizable…

> The idea that someone would expect to 1) land a job they love while 2) making gobs of money and 3) have it generalizable across an oversaturated market like academia seems to indicate a lack of understanding of the incentive structure within the system. I think that’s a strawman, even if unintended. The idea is that academia means a pay cut in exchange for a job one loves and more research freedom. The worsening si…

What part do you think is specifically a strawman? The idea that they want to make more money in academia? My response was to the OP's "not many people seem to end up making money doing something they really care about" statement. The only part I've added to their argument is that the PhD market is oversaturated; I added that because it adds important context to the market dynamics that govern pay.

I'll try to put a finer point on it. Why should the work in academia not result in a tradeoff? Why should the jobs in academia pay the same in industry when you are given other benefits?

You are generally removing yourself by a degree or more from the economy to work in academia. E.g., you may develop a new algorithm that helps image recognition, but you aren't likely to be putting it directly into a production environment. As I previously said, pay is generally commensurate with your direct contribution to the economy. So if the nature of your job distances yourself from the economy, you should probably expect lower pay. Now what you get in exchange is some more autonomy in terms of what you focus your energy on. The idea that someone expects both autonomy and high pay seems at odds with reality.

Practically every job results in weighing tradeoffs. People get paid in more ways than just economics. A social worker doesn't get paid the same as a financier because they are more distanced from the economy. But many people find the job still worthwhile because in exchange for lower pay they have a more fulfilling job. Military members weigh whether to continue serving in uniform or make more money as contractors. PhD astrophysicists may have to choose between making lots of money in finance or studying the cosmos. In the same vein, the academic tradeoff is only pointless if you don't value the other non-economic parts that academia offers. If you want to maximize pay, academia probably isn't the track for you; maybe you're better off working on maximizing ad spend in the attention economy. But if you want the autonomy to focus on problems that you feel are more interesting or more important, maybe it's worth the tradeoff. It's all about the tradeoffs but the OP doesn't seem to acknowledge that these tradeoffs exist because they imply one should be able to make lots of money while working on what they love. That's only available to a relatively small number of people, especially in an oversaturated market. There's only one starting center fielder position for the Yankees and it seems odd if we lament that we can't all seem to play. That's all I was pointing out and I'm not seeing how that's a strawman.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't meant to call Ph.D. student slaves, I'm just trying to point out that by your definition even slaves are not free labour, which I think we all agree is wrong. I just couldn't think of another situation where people aren't getting paid, but in retrospect I guess volunteers would have been a less insulting example and convey my point better.

Okay, even so, I must push back stronger on the point you made initially, that professors are looking to exploit free labor and therefore would never cut Ph.D. enrollments in half. The first notion I would like to dispel is that we are looking for employees of any kind. To be clear, a Ph.D. is closer to an apprenticeship than it is to employment, so benchmarking it against employment leads to all kinds of wrong concl…

> In fact, we are looking for students, which is to say that when admitted to a Ph.D., students lack the skills necessary to undertake the work, and the expectation is that they will be trained as a matter of course.

Except you are not looking for students, you are looking for the top graduates in the field, and you are training them for a job that barely exists.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#154

I think what we call academia isn’t really academia, but a system that’s subservient to the desires of the state. The dollars come from somewhere and there are always strings attached. Sure, a tenured professor has more freedom than the average federal employee, but only because the state hasn’t felt the need to tighten the screws. If policy interests ever diverged from interests of the universities, I think we’d qui…

I think it is easy to produce vague allegations of a lack of integrity, but I would really expect more substance to such a critique. > ... desires of the state. The dollars come from somewhere and there are always strings attached. Is this suggesting that the public funders influence the outcome of research? It is not something I have ever witnessed. They sometimes may seek to take influence on the direction of a res…

“Is this suggesting that the public funders influence the outcome of research?”

The funders decide what gets funded.

One example, from Stanford,

“ Stanford University receives hundreds of millions of dollars of funding from the NIH, without which researchers would not have the resources to conduct many worthwhile experiments and studies. NIH funding also confers prestige and status within the scientific community. At Stanford, it is very difficult for a biomedical researcher in her department to earn tenure without landing a major NIH grant. The attack by Collins and Fauci sent a clear signal to other scientists that the GBD was a heretical document.”

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/sta...

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, even so, I must push back stronger on the point you made initially, that professors are looking to exploit free labor and therefore would never cut Ph.D. enrollments in half. The first notion I would like to dispel is that we are looking for employees of any kind. To be clear, a Ph.D. is closer to an apprenticeship than it is to employment, so benchmarking it against employment leads to all kinds of wrong concl…

> In fact, we are looking for students, which is to say that when admitted to a Ph.D., students lack the skills necessary to undertake the work, and the expectation is that they will be trained as a matter of course. Except you are not looking for students, you are looking for the top graduates in the field, and you are training them for a job that barely exists.

> Except you are not looking for students, you are looking for the top graduates in the field, and you are training them for a job that barely exists.

Ph.D. students are in fact students, and I'm training them in a discipline in which I am one of the few experts in the world, to the point where they are an additional world expert on that topic. That takes a lot of time.

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