Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#31

Post by bri3d » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

For those who are replying with "all my projects were remote before anyway" or "I was on video conference before fully remote work too!" - how many of these co-workers on video were at another office site, or had worked at an office site before "going remote?"

Before 2020, I also had video attendees in almost every meeting, but they were either at another office site where they still had a peer group and some co-located team members, or had a long tenure at the company and had been "allowed" to work remotely.

In my opinion these previous remote-attendee situations are totally different dynamics from running a fully remote team. There is a special, major challenge in managing a team where many team members have never met one another, a coworker of any kind, or their management in person. It's a surmountable challenge and I think some of this can be explained by the cynical "employers would rather let remote employees go than learn something new" take, but working in and managing a remote team is still a unique experience IMO.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#32

Post by amf12 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

eerikkivistik wrote: post #6

Some problems are solved faster by multiple people getting together in front of a whiteboard and drawing. For those kinds of problems it’s useful to have people in the same room until we have AR solutions that can fill that need. Also for some people, not leaving their home caused significant issues in their performance. People aren’t solitary creatures, so for some - the office fills that role. For others, home offi…

> Some problems are solved faster by multiple people getting together in front of a whiteboard and drawing.

I hear this often, and it makes sense, but I am not sure how frequently do people solve problems with whiteboarding? Is it such a frequent problem that we need to be in the office every day?

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#33

Post by klyrs » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

josefrichter wrote: post #2

Not an employer. But I believe most employees simply put in less hours when working from home, and most employers aren't very good at rewarding people for their results, not their hours.

That hasn't been my experience. With a home office, it's hard to tear myself away from work. Commuting is a waste of my time, and a "clean break" ends up costing my employer several hours a day. I'm salaried, so that isn't a monetary cost, but I've seen a real benefit to productivity.

Of course, employers want both butt-in-chair metrics and 24/7 availability without increasing pay. Don't give them that.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#34

Post by bartchamdo » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

Sadly, the biggest employer motivation is some have very long leases and don’t want to look stupid to the board for having signed up for useless office space with a decade still on their lease. Others are motivated by ego, being able to walk down isles watching their minions tools away. However, never meeting people IRL definitely reduces collaboration and performance on highly iterative and collaborative projects compared to everyone going and meeting IRL. Meeting at least quarterly for 3-4 days can make things work, but time in an office is better. Again, if you work on a team. If you are and IC, quarterly if probably fine or entirely remote might be fine too.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#35

Post by devoutsalsa » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

bobleeswagger wrote: post #16

> there’s not much in-office dynamic like maybe there was 20 years ago Yeah, because folks like you insist that office culture has nothing to do with productivity. I wonder if you've ever worked somewhere productive. > dragging us back into the office Dragging? Are we slaves now?

Obviously we’re not slaves. But if your employer says everyone is required to return to the office on some date, it’s not like you have a lot of options for saying no other than not showing up to see what happens or finding alternative employment.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#36

Post by hikingsimulator » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #23

I think a lot of people are abusing WFH. Some make it obvious like doing meal prep during refinement but others are just kind of ghosts during the day. Even as a fellow team member reviewing code it's hard to tell how much my coworkers are working. Assume my EM has less of an idea than I do and anyone above them is totally in the dark.

Caring about the raw amount of time people put into their jobs sounds like a middle management thing to do -- rewarding showing up and putting in hours like it was PR.

If the results are there, and in accordance with the employment contract, time shouldn't matter.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#37

Post by irrational » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

josefrichter wrote: post #2

Not an employer. But I believe most employees simply put in less hours when working from home, and most employers aren't very good at rewarding people for their results, not their hours.

Opposite for me. At home I start working when I wake up and often don't stop until the evening. When I go into the office I have to get ready and commute, and then at the office there are so many distractions - our campus has fantastic fitness facilities and I'll often spend a few hours each day over there. So, at home I probably work for 10 hours. When on campus I probably get 4 hours of work in, if that. Plus, I am so much more productive at home. I have a quiet private office with a much faster internet connection and better equipment. On campus, people don't know how to shut up, so it is hard to get work done with people around me discussing things that have absolutely nothing about work - the other day, 2 people spent an hour discussing how much butter is in Danish cookies! Right next to me!

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#38

Post by davedx » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

cloudwalking wrote: post #4

People need social connections with their peers to work together successfully. It's much easier to build these connections in the office than virtually. Seeing each other a couple times per quarter for an extended period could also work, but it's easier--if you already have an office space--to bring people together in the office once or twice a week.

This is just conjecture, post some evidence for your claims

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#39

Post by mech422 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

bediger4000 wrote: post #5

20 years ago I was on a lot of conference calls early or late in the workday, offshoring my job to a time zone 11.5 or 10.5 hours off, or with sysadmins 1 hour off. The only thing that's changed in 20 years is Zoom or WebEx vs a conference bridge. There wasn't an in office dynamic then or now.

Funny how having everyone in the same office wasn't a concern when outsourcing was the new hotness.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#40

Post by dudul » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

josefrichter wrote: post #2

Not an employer. But I believe most employees simply put in less hours when working from home, and most employers aren't very good at rewarding people for their results, not their hours.

Over the past 2 years many studies have actually shown the opposite. People work during what was their commute time, they work when they are sick, during lunch break.