Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#131

Post by schrijver » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:47 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #50

bondarchuk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the options with similar portability, sampling, synthesis, fx, and multitrack recording, that you can buy new, and is not just an ipad or something, for under 300 dollars?

> and is not just an ipad or something That's the rub. I have no interest in the TE stuff (or, for that matter, most other manufacturer's stuff), but what we can do on our hosts, these days, is amazing . I remember using a Tascam recorder for our sessions, where you keep remixing tracks, until the hiss becomes your "signature sound." Nowadays, you can have a 24-track, digital system on your handheld, for peanuts.

Right, these products don’t work for me because their interfaces reproduce what was bad about 1980ies technology: small screens, shift buttons to enable multiple functions, lots of conventions you have to learn by heart. DAW’s are so much easier to use! That’s not to say I don’t like physical hardware—it makes so much sense for analog synths, mixing desks, guitar pedals etc. or whatever instrument where you have a nice chunky button for each function.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#132

Post by psychomugs » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #126

psychomugs wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfathomably stupid to me that one would care so much about what others spend their money on, as if it were something actively harmful. To each their own, the only real winner here is the one selling their product.

Sometimes I forget this is a business website first, tech website second. Touché, the abject waste of money is so easy to ignore when you contextualize it on a website of moonshot founders and Apple enthusiasts.

I have a fair share of dislikes of what people spend their money on, e.g. conspicuous consumption on fads, Teslas in particular, because they have or will directly impact my being as an individual through policy and regulation. The instrument someone enjoys making music on is so insignificant that it shouldn't warrant my concern.

Then again, considering how little progress there is to be made with music technology and how much of the industry is buoyed by marketing and brand, it makes sense that people defend their choice of consumption so fervently.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#133

Post by smoldesu » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #109

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of which says "stylised and arty" and is a look much used in The Wire and similar publications. I'm kind of irritated by this. TA are legendary for super-expensive toy-like products that must have insanely high margins. So somehow the "I was never into money (but now I collect antique synthesizers with four or five figure price tags)" line doesn't ring entirely true.

Unfortunately, All low volume boutique electronic musical instruments have “insanely high margins”. The less boutique normal stuff made by Yamaha and Roland is likely priced at 4x the BOM - and they are able to get better deals from distributors than TE can. You can’t sustain a business any other way. Consumer electronics are cheap because they can sell millions worldwide. Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thous…

It's worth drawing a line between handmade instruments and mass-produced machines though. Yes, Roland and Yamaha also have high margins, but they also face steep competition from low-margin companies like Behringer who are effectively wrecking their business model. Companies like Moog were safe because their demand will always be the same, but boutique vendors everywhere are closing up shop.

I'll agree that it's a zero-sum game either way, but it ends with the high-margin vendors getting undercut. Something we could have avoided if they worked to make their product cheaper instead of working to make it more expensive.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#134

Post by robocat » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #24

Note the Moog Theremin sitting around casually used as a dump for patchcables!

Behind the Theremin is a kakelugn/kachelofen/masonry-heater fireplace.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry_heater

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=swedish+round+ceramic+stove

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#135

Post by ilyt » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #109

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of which says "stylised and arty" and is a look much used in The Wire and similar publications. I'm kind of irritated by this. TA are legendary for super-expensive toy-like products that must have insanely high margins. So somehow the "I was never into money (but now I collect antique synthesizers with four or five figure price tags)" line doesn't ring entirely true.

Unfortunately, All low volume boutique electronic musical instruments have “insanely high margins”. The less boutique normal stuff made by Yamaha and Roland is likely priced at 4x the BOM - and they are able to get better deals from distributors than TE can. You can’t sustain a business any other way. Consumer electronics are cheap because they can sell millions worldwide. Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thous…

If you compare them with other competitors in the space the likes of Elektron or Polyend give you more hardware for less. They make Elektron look outright cheap in comparison in fact.

> Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands so they’re not getting any special deals from their vendors either.

10s of thousands is enough to get the economies of scale to start working. Even for stuff like custom LCDs for pocket operators.

Yes niche costs few times to make than truly mass market as you still need to pay yourself a salary and not just "earn good profit on unit", but on the other side the only reason OP-1 is niche it is because say OP-1 is just that expensive that most people look at it and go "okay, I could get this and this and that and still have some money left over". They know hipsters will buy it and have no real reason to try to sell more units for less money, as that devalues the eliteness of it.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#136

Post by psychomugs » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #130

psychomugs wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same as how professional photographers use expensive 'real' capital-C Cameras with interchangeable capital-L Lenses but still carry pocketable point-and-shoots for 'fun,' e.g. Ricoh GR, Fuji X100. Tools should be enjoyable to use, which these gadgets offer in spades.

But in this case, the just-for-fun pocket device is more often expensive than the capital-K Keyboard.

Both of the cameras I listed are more expensive than many perfectly capable interchangeable-lens cameras (Ricoh GR ~$1000, Fuji X100 ~$1300 [currently prone to scalping for even more]), but still rightfully warrant the demand because of their usability.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#137

Post by smoldesu » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

psychomugs wrote: post #132

smoldesu wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I forget this is a business website first, tech website second. Touché, the abject waste of money is so easy to ignore when you contextualize it on a website of moonshot founders and Apple enthusiasts.

I have a fair share of dislikes of what people spend their money on, e.g. conspicuous consumption on fads, Teslas in particular, because they have or will directly impact my being as an individual through policy and regulation. The instrument someone enjoys making music on is so insignificant that it shouldn't warrant my concern. Then again, considering how little progress there is to be made with music technology an…

If you don't care about it, nobody is egging you into further conversation. I talk about this stuff because I enjoy making music, and there is intellectually gratifying criticism to be made on the gear being produced today. If you don't care about that, then admittedly I could see how this is pedantic and pointless.

Like I said above, it's my mistake for criticizing consumerism on a website that lives, eats and dies on how much people buy into arbitrary things like marketing and brand.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#138

Post by smoldesu » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 6:58 PM UTC

psychomugs wrote: post #136

whatshisface wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in this case, the just-for-fun pocket device is more often expensive than the capital-K Keyboard.

Both of the cameras I listed are more expensive than many perfectly capable interchangeable-lens cameras (Ricoh GR ~$1000, Fuji X100 ~$1300 [currently prone to scalping for even more]), but still rightfully warrant the demand because of their usability.

Which is fine. If professionals collect them for novelty, nothing is lost. If a beginner were to spend all their money on a novelty camera instead of an interchangeable lens model, then it does become a bit of a waste. Almost like they bought into the hype because of the end-product or social sex-appeal, a phenomenon that ties neatly into TE's marketing.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#139

Post by psychomugs » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 7:00 PM UTC

jxf wrote: post #113

smoldesu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Ostensibly there's nothing wrong with making pricy hipster audio equipment, but the rampant success of their marketing just makes me facepalm. People out there genuinely think the OP-1 is a $1000 product in 2023, which should inspire riots in the street. The OP-1 Field raising the price instead of lowering it is the last nail in the coffin for me. $800 is a pricy toy - $1500+ puts you in brand-new Octatrack terr…

> But, people pay for it. They want the whittled down, inspiring experience without any of the effort or trouble. I don't know if this is the right analogy. Some people want to pay for features _not_ to be included in stuff because they enjoy the simplicity. There are phones that don't have a browser or let you download apps, for example. That's not a "scam", that's just marketing to people who want simplicity.

Leica charges hundreds more for monochrome-only and screenless models of their cameras. The fact that there have been several generations of their suggests it's working and helps keep them afloat.

Re: Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering

#140

Post by psychomugs » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 7:01 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #114

selykg wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, show me what’s out there.

- Elektron Model: Samples - Novation Circuit - Roland MC-101 - Korg Electribe - Used Digitakt - (God forbid) Teenage Engineering OP-Z The list goes on but those are the big names. Again, I'm mostly fascinated that such a nothingburger company like TE can capture the hearts of rich people everywhere. Maybe it just goes to show that the most successful businesses aren't the ones with the best products, but with the mos…

>the most successful businesses aren't the ones with the best products, but with the most effective marketing and highest sex appeal.

This goes without saying.

Also, having owned/used over half of those on the list, none of them emulate the tape functionality, which is arguably the OP-1's killer feature in the same way that the sequencer is the OP-Z's.